Reacquainting myself with the .243Win

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Replies

  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Snake, with spire point bullets, frontal area really don't mean crap between rifle calibers. These ain't cast bullets. ALL spire point style bullets are........pointy.



    Agreed on the .308 vs 30-06. Unless you are shooting the heavy bullets, ain't enough difference in the two to mean Richard. And rare is the case that anyone shoots the heavy bullets. And if you are shooting the heavy bullets, you might as well shoot the heavy bullets by stepping up to a 300 mag or a 300 RUM.

    Especially because SPs and HPs expand like a socialist government once it intrudes into a living thing.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    On the original topic reference the 100gr load in was sorting out, I think they might actually be 100gr Speer SPBT bullets. The coloration Of The Copper is not consistent with Sierra bullets that I have. It's a darker, almost bronze-like color. Speers are looking like that though.

    Haven't had a chance to contact the manufacturer yet, though.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,257 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Yes, they work. They were conceived to work. But here is my point of view:

    .
    .30-06 is essentially a corvette with a 2 speed automatic transmission. It's a powder inefficient cartridge. I like my sporterized 1903, but it's not a favorite caliber-wise. Never will be.

    .308 begins to crest the margin of performance and efficiency for me. While it's more powder efficient than .30-06, it suffers in bullet BC considerations.

    Don't quite understand the comment on BC. The same BC as the rest of .30 caliber bullets that are usable. They shoot 160 gr. bullets at the Palma matches and seem to do fine at 1000 yards.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,355 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Earth to Jason, come in Jason.. ah don't fall into that trap. A 30 caliber does trump it, obviously at the expense of your shoulder but a good 150 grain or even a 130 grain 30 caliber bullet travling at 3000-3100 fps is awesome. It's the frontal area. It does make a difference that your BC figures don't take into account. The 6mms, the quarter bores, and even the 7mms are what they are, but a 30 cal. they are not. Of course the 6s are more than plenty for deer size and even larger game.

    But, size does matter.

    I'm with Jason on this one because my progression away from the .30 cal world is virtually identical to his. I started my hunting life with a .300 Win Mag on the suggestion of a neighbor. At the time, his versatility argument for going bigger than necessary made sense to me. He argued that bigger cartridge gave me the flexibility to shoot whitetails and a slew of much larger game animals. While what he said is true, it ignored a very important fact of life I discovered the more I hunted: I shoot way more stuff form whitails *down* the size scale than up it. Think about how many more mule deer, whitetail deer, antelope, coyote, and rabbit hunts most folks go on versus elk, moose, eland, and kudu hunts the average American will see. In that regard, a 7mm or 6mm-something-or-another tends to be a lot more useful than most of your .30 caliber+ meat grinders.

    In the years since I bought that .300 Win Mag it has killed...exactly zero animals. After using it at the range and one time in the field, I found that the muzzlebrake that makes the recoil comfortable makes it insanely loud and unfun to shoot without hearing protection. It's far more gun than I need to kill whitetails and way, WAY more than I need for anything smaller. It's not a practical paper puncher with its pencil-thin sporter barrel and as a result, has sat idle in my safe for years, seeing less use that pretty much every other gun in there.

    If I could do it all over again, my first gun would've been a .243 Win or 7mm-08, and I would very likely never have bought this particular .300 Win Mag because I don't really need it for anything in particular.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Ehhh....


    If in were going for 400+ pound game, then in would opt for .30cal and frankly, again, likely .300WinMag or even .300RUM. 308Win/7.62mm is very utilitarian; I won't refute that. I'd never sell my Ruger Gunsite Scout. BUT, a 7mm08 Gunsite Scout would trump it, IMO.

    All I'm saying is that 308Win has what it has with regards to popularity due to the military adoption of the cartridge and early adoption as a competitive sport cartridge--again thanks to the military. The hunting world may disagree if it were honest with itself.

    You may be partially right, but the .308 got popular of it's own accord in my humble opinion. It proved to be and is still proving to be an excellent military cartridge, it has taken all manner of game, it is inherently accurate, and it spawned the .243, .358, 7-08, and .260. For what I and most people use a hunting rifle for, it is very versatile and in the practical sense can hold its own with any of its offsprings and most other rifles. But that's what this place is all about, opinions. So I will respect yours even if I don't fully agree. And I will say your choice will do what you need it to do and that's the bottom line.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Don't quite understand the comment on BC. The same BC as the rest of .30 caliber bullets that are usable. They shoot 160 gr. bullets at the Palma matches and seem to do fine at 1000 yards.

    I never said it wasn't capable of long range shooting. But Palma also uses some slightly specialized equipment...tighter chambers, .307 bore, 30" barrels...
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Snake, with spire point bullets, frontal area really don't mean crap between rifle calibers. These ain't cast bullets. ALL spire point style bullets are........pointy.



    Agreed on the .308 vs 30-06. Unless you are shooting the heavy bullets, ain't enough difference in the two to mean Richard. And rare is the case that anyone shoots the heavy bullets. And if you are shooting the heavy bullets, you might as well shoot the heavy bullets by stepping up to a 300 mag or a 300 RUM.

    They're pointy only on one end. I'm talking about making a bigger hole with more mass.

    To further explain frontal area all Spitzer type bullets have very little area right at the front of the bullet. Maybe frontal area is not what I mean here or I used a bad choice of words. I was thinking of makes a bigger hole.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    I think in a way each side is correct in the 308 argument. It is a versatile all around jack of all trades cartridge. It does a lot of things well. It is surrounded by cartridges that do individual things better. You get what you get with a jack of all trades. So take it for what it is. The first bolt gun I bought was in 308 for this reason. Now that I have more money I have added many different chamberings to the battery that expand my choices. If I had to keep one of them it would be the 308. Not because it is best, but because it is versatile.
    It's because I hate Trump.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,257 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I never said it wasn't capable of long range shooting. But Palma also uses some slightly specialized equipment...tighter chambers, .307 bore, 30" barrels...

    Nothing you can't get if you build a rifle. However, can't see a practical application for these "race" guns. Any production rifle has looser chambers.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • brians356brians356 Member Posts: 157 Member
    Nice deal! Too bad it wasn't in 6mm Rem, but you'll make do ...
    "If this is flag waving, can you think of a better flag to wave?"
    Irving Berlin
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    I'm with Jason on this one because my progression away from the .30 cal world is virtually identical to his. I started my hunting life with a .300 Win Mag on the suggestion of a neighbor. At the time, his versatility argument for going bigger than necessary made sense to me. He argued that bigger cartridge gave me the flexibility to shoot whitetails and a slew of much larger game animals. While what he said is true, it ignored a very important fact of life I discovered the more I hunted: I shoot way more stuff form whitails *down* the size scale than up it. Think about how many more mule deer, whitetail deer, antelope, coyote, and rabbit hunts most folks go on versus elk, moose, eland, and kudu hunts the average American will see. In that regard, a 7mm or 6mm-something-or-another tends to be a lot more useful than most of your .30 caliber+ meat grinders.

    In the years since I bought that .300 Win Mag it has killed...exactly zero animals. After using it at the range and one time in the field, I found that the muzzlebrake that makes the recoil comfortable makes it insanely loud and unfun to shoot without hearing protection. It's far more gun than I need to kill whitetails and way, WAY more than I need for anything smaller. It's not a practical paper puncher with its pencil-thin sporter barrel and as a result, has sat idle in my safe for years, seeing less use that pretty much every other gun in there.

    If I could do it all over again, my first gun would've been a .243 Win or 7mm-08, and I would very likely never have bought this particular .300 Win Mag because I don't really need it for anything in particular.

    I'm not arguing that the smaller cartridges aren't plenty good for what we do. I have lots of smaller stuff than 30. I have .224s, .244s, .257s, a .ahem.. .277, and a couple of .284s, and I shoot these probably twice as often as I shoot any of my 30s. And some smaller cartridges may suit you better. I'm only saying that the 7mms and 6mms and all in between aren't really better than a 30. They may be more pleasant to shoot and plenty adequate, but not really more capable. If I need, I can kill probably anything I hunt with my .223 or my .22-250. In light of that, I know the .243 is adequate along with the 250 Savage and the .257. But no way they are better. In my opinion, with the right bullet and bullet placement Bigger is always better, but it's just not always needed. And as far as a .300 magnum, I have never needed one for deer. I feel the magnums like that with deer size game only give you more ability to kill at distance and I personally don't feel right shooting at a distance that they would really help me that much.

    I have two so called magnum rifles, a 300 Weatherby and a 7 Remington Mag. Since I don't shoot at deer any further than 300-400 yards, I only have them for hunting larger animals. I took my 300 on a Nilgai hunt and I got the 7 mag because I thought I was going Elk hunting, which I didn't have the funds to do that year. But I never sell a gun so I've still got both. Some day I may get a chance to use one or both on something larger than deer. And some day they will be passed on to my kids and grand kids. Maybe they'll have more use for them.

    But for the 30-06 and the .308 and also my 9.3 x 62, I do use them on deer size game and i don't believe anything smaller has an edge on them at all. I use them all because they are all adequate for deer and hogs and I like variety.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    brians356 wrote: »
    Nice deal! Too bad it wasn't in 6mm Rem, but you'll make do ...

    Very few 6mm Rem / .244 Rem guns had faster that 1:12 or 1:10 twist rifing. Mostly the former.

    I need faster twists to satisfy my liking of heavy bullets.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,257 Senior Member
    The 6mm I had was a 1:9. The .243s were 1:10. A Rem and a Winchester.

    No big deal.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Very few 6mm Rem / .244 Rem guns had faster that 1:12 or 1:10 twist rifing. Mostly the former.

    I need faster twists to satisfy my liking of heavy bullets.

    You need to check your information sources on this.
    1:12 was eliminated by Remington in 63 by mine
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    The 6mm I had was a 1:9. The .243s were 1:10. A Rem and a Winchester.

    No big deal.
    Weatherby wrote: »
    You need to check your information sources on this.
    1:12 was eliminated by Remington in 63 by mine

    Yep, sorry. .244 Remington was mostly 10T and 12T. 6mm Remington was 9T and 10T.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    Weatherby wrote: »
    You need to check your information sources on this.
    1:12 was eliminated by Remington in 63 by mine

    You're correct from what I read Weatherby. And also, I bought a 6mm along about 1981 I believe, and it was 1:9 and in my old Speer No. 9 Manual from the middle 70s they show the 6mm as 1:9 also. The 1:12 went away when Remington Re-introduced the .244 as the 6mm I think in 1963 and they started making Factory ammo for it with 100 grain Spitzer Bullets. As far as I know I don't think Remington ever made a rifle with 6mm stamped on the barrel with a 1:12 or even a 1:10 twist.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • shootbrownelkshootbrownelk Senior Member Posts: 2,025 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    Same here. I shot one, circa 1966, and even at 15yo knew it was a great chambering. Then, I got interested in .308 and took .243's for granted for about 50 years. Last year, I ran across a Model 600 Mohawk at a great price and snapped it up. It already had a Leupold VX-II (I think) and I fired exactly two rounds of factory Core-Lokts through it before letting my SIL borrow it for my grandson to hunt with. Both of those Core-Lokts hit the bulls eye at 100 yards, about a 1/2" apart, and I have been negotiating for its return for over a year, now. I had been dreaming about putting a nice walnut stock on it and maybe a Timney trigger, and using it for whitetails, when I get too feeble for my .30-06. But, I might just start using it immediately, since it is such a sweet shooter.

    That is a really nice rifle and you shoot it well. :up::yousuck:

    Bisley, I just bought a model 660 Remington in .243 this past Monday. I haven't yet checked out when it was made, but did find out that Remington had a trigger/safety recall on the 600/660&Mohawks in 1979. Mine wasn't sent in. It's all stock. It has a redfield mount & rings & a Redfield "Widefield" scope on it. I haven't shot it yet, but plan to soon.
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    I haven't shot it yet, but plan to soon......SLACKER
    I picked up a 600 Mohawk in 222 last year and am very happy with it performance wise
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,772 Senior Member
    I'm curious as to what mine will do once I get it put together

    Me too
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Yep, sorry. .244 Remington was mostly 10T and 12T. 6mm Remington was 9T and 10T.

    Actually, the .244s mostly were 1:12. That's what screwed its reputation up in the first place. They wouldn't stabilize 100 grain bullets. The probably did make some in 1:10 later when they were trying to salvage it's sales. But the damage was done.

    If the .244 would have been a 1:10 twist in the first place you probably never would have heard of a 6mm Remington and the .243 may have gone by the way side a long time ago. A 1:10 twist will stabilize a 100 grain 6mm-.243 bullet all day long. My friend and I both had 6mms, his was a Ruger 77 with 1:10 twist and it grouped about as good as my rifle did with 100 grain bullets and mine was a Remington 700 with 1:9. But I don't know how his would have done with a 105 Grain Spitzer. I don't think he ever tried them. But I know that in my old Speer manual it shows a Winchester Model 70 with a 1:10 twist rate shooting 105 grain bullets. I may be wrong but I believe all other .243s AND 6mms other than Remington were 1:10 twist for a long time.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    .30-06 is essentially a corvette with a 2 speed automatic transmission.

    Jason, check your hot rod history or rather Chevy and Corvette. Chevy put 2 speed Powerglides in Vettes and they ran like Speckle Ass Apes. In fact there's still some drag cars out there running Powerglides. If you had the Horse Power they would make a family sedan scream. Shift points are weak points in a drag race, that's a couple mili seconds you're not putting power to the rear wheels, So with a Powerglide you have one or more less shift points. Rap that dude up to about 7 grand and you're almost through the quarter and many car lengths ahead of the competition that's still shifting through the gears. With the right rear end ratio that Powerglide would rap up and be making power all the way through low and then shift quick and still be in the power band or rather torque band accelerating all the way through the quarter with few if any flat acceleration periods.

    Also, the newer model aluminum Powerglides were much lighter than say a B&M Hydro, Turbo 350 or 400, Ford C-4 or C-6, or Torqueflite trans.


    So not a real good analogy there, ok back to guns.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Back a gazillion years ago I bought a Ruger .243 for deer hunting. As you know, ol' Bill Ruger was a leftie and he mandated that there be lefthand versions of most calibers, and that they be priced the same as right-hand.

    I think I had a B&L scope but cannot remember.

    What I do remember was how sweet this little .243 (essentially a carbine) fired and handled. My hunting pals were into the hottest and biggest caliber you could get, as if they were going for elk or maybe Kodiak bear, and their rifles were nearly 2x the weight of mine.

    I got lucky because a pal of my Dad recommended a .243 for the smallish deer in central Missouri, also that the hunting areas were mostly wooded glens and such, no real long shots forthcoming.

    Accurate and reliable little rifle, not fancy at all, just plain jane but fun to own. I eventually gave it to my nephew.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,355 Senior Member
    Sam - you recollection is about how I feel about my .243 Win. It's a lefty and the cartridge is definitely not considered sexy by Western uber-magnum standards, but kills deer quite with boring regularity.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,104 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    .30-06 is essentially a corvette with a 2 speed automatic transmission.

    Jason, check your hot rod history or rather Chevy and Corvette. Chevy put 2 speed Powerglides in Vettes and they ran like Speckle Ass Apes. In fact there's still some drag cars out there running Powerglides. If you had the Horse Power they would make a family sedan scream. Shift points are weak points in a drag race, that's a couple mili seconds you're not putting power to the rear wheels, So with a Powerglide you have one or more less shift points. Rap that dude up to about 7 grand and you're almost through the quarter and many car lengths ahead of the competition that's still shifting through the gears. With the right rear end ratio that Powerglide would rap up and be making power all the way through low and then shift quick and still be in the power band or rather torque band accelerating all the way through the quarter with few if any flat acceleration periods.

    Also, the newer model aluminum Powerglides were much lighter than say a B&M Hydro, Turbo 350 or 400, Ford C-4 or C-6, or Torqueflite trans.


    So not a real good analogy there, ok back to guns.

    Jesus...lol. I was making a figurative rhetorical comment.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,658 Senior Member
    Bisley, I just bought a model 660 Remington in .243 this past Monday. I haven't yet checked out when it was made, but did find out that Remington had a trigger/safety recall on the 600/660&Mohawks in 1979. Mine wasn't sent in. It's all stock. It has a redfield mount & rings & a Redfield "Widefield" scope on it. I haven't shot it yet, but plan to soon.

    Good find. Mine was also never sent in on the recall.

    Back in about 1966, I saved up the money to buy a Model 600 carbine in .308 - the vent rib model, because it just fit me perfectly, at the time. At that time, it was not a given that a scope would be installed, so the vent rib seemed to make sense - besides, it just looked cool. At the last minute, I changed my mind and bought a Model 88 Winchester in .308. It was a great rifle, also, but I've always wanted a 600. The Mohawk was a kind of 'nostalgia' purchase for me, till I shot it. Now I just want it back because it is a heck of a good shooter. I'll eventually give it to a grandson, but I want to play with it awhile, myself, first.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 21,857 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Jesus...lol. I was making a figurative rhetorical comment.

    Hey Bro, hehehehe, I was only sounding off at your expense. I guess I came across a little strong but was only being sarcastic. I appologize and believe me, I see your point.

    Seriously, many people don't realize what powerglides can do with horsepower in a quarter mile. Just like many don't realize what a .243 will do inside a quarter mile. But I still say none of its offspring are better than the parent cartridge .308, but they are more than adequate and for most chores are as good.

    Some would ask why we need 40-11 different cartridges. But it's more than just pulling the trigger and going Bang. For us gun people it's a passionate desire to try something different. That's why I have rifles in 12 different cartridges in my safe, not counting mil-surps. And I will have more, the good lord willing and the dollar don't rise (Too much). I will have another 6mm in my life, and some form of 6.5 in my safe before I'm feeding the worms.

    Anyway, don't mind me, I'm just sounding off expressing my right to free speech I guess. :tooth:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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