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Obama announces restrictions on distribution of military-style equipment to police

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  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    And you don't answer my questions...

    1. Is there a better use for the money?

    Maybe? Replace aging patrol cars? Replace aging equipment? I don't get to make those decisions. I'd rather have more pay than a MRAP.
    2. Where will the money come from?

    Taxes and limited funds from grants.
    3. Is the equipment really needed?

    Yes. Yes it is. Our well-aged armored....thing....has failed to even start up for SWAT callouts, so yes, we need a new one.
    As taxpayers, we deserve those answers. Don't deflect with talking about fire departments and trying to throw in the cost of patrol vehicles... they're immaterial to the discussion. Their maintenance and replacement should be figured into the annual budget, barring catastrophic event. Instead for new equipment that can be a potential money sink, those expenditures need to be justified and explained.

    It's not a deflection. Everyone wants to be selective when they gripe about spending money on first responders. And the gripe is almost always aimed at cops. I'm showing some perspective.

    We will use an up-armored SWAT vehicle far more than the stupid half-million dollar red monstrosity the FD got tax dollar funds allocated for. The ladder part...the primary part of the damn thing...has yet to be used in the entire year they've had it. We've had at least 15 SWAT callouts due to armed barricaded persons in that time.

    This isn't just about police spending. Broaden the perspective. It's about tax spending--period.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member
    Maybe? Replace aging patrol cars? Replace aging equipment? I don't get to make those decisions. I'd rather have more pay than a MRAP.
    Saying "statements like 'good, my local police department doesn't need a MRAP anyway' is a statement made ignorant of the reality." and then saying the above is both a copout and disingenuous. You've positioned yourself to justify PD use of an MRAP, but then say you don't get to make those decisions? Then who are you to answer the questions put forth?
    Taxes and limited funds from grants.
    Grant money that comes from....?
    Yes. Yes it is. Our well-aged armored....thing....has failed to even start up for SWAT callouts, so yes, we need a new one.
    Great, your PD needs a new one. Fine, you've justified the need for an armored vehicle and the need for a replacement. For your department. What of departments that have no SWAT team and no demonstrated need for said team and its support equipment?
    It's not a deflection. Everyone wants to be selective when they gripe about spending money on first responders. And the gripe is almost always aimed at cops. I'm showing some perspective.
    The thread's not about that. You're trying to make it about that and therefore avoiding the meat of the discussion.
    We will use an up-armored SWAT vehicle far more than the stupid half-million dollar red monstrosity the FD got tax dollar funds allocated for. The ladder part...the primary part of the damn thing...has yet to be used in the entire year they've had it. We've had at least 15 SWAT callouts due to armed barricaded persons in that time.
    Then maybe the police union and the voters should get in on how local monies are spent between emergency services. But unless the ladder truck is surplus from the feds, I don't see how it's really pertinent here.
    This isn't just about police spending. Broaden the perspective. It's about tax spending--period.
    Most of us are talking at a national level and you're talking about one PD in an area that has how many people? We're talking about multiple police departments and you're talking about 1. Who's got the narrow perspective?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Generally speaking about MRAPs in a general sort of way. They are pretty worthless as a SWAT vehicle. They have a huge amount of ground clearance.
    1. High ground clearance makes them worthless to try to hide behind; you're exposing everything from the belly button down, and more, depending on officer height, to 'hostile fire' standing on the opposite side of one. Bullet resistant vests don't protect the 'giblets' or the legs.
    2. Anyone riding in the back has to negotiate steps to get down out of that high box in back. More exposure, and you're coming down facing the ladder to prevent doing a face plant in the pavement if you trip.
    3. They are seriously at a disadvantage on soft soil. FL has a lot of soft sand masquerading as soil making them useless off the pavement.
    4. They make a nice armored command post vehicle for radio and other communication, but don't really have much more purpose due to the above glaring deficiencies. Unless you're planning on rolling through one of those houses built on a concrete slab in FL to flush out the armed and barricaded individual. In that capacity, they might work O.K.
    5. They are just as susceptible to Molotov cocktails as most any other wheeled vehicle during a riot. Once the tires are on fire, their usefulness will soon be limited as they start running on the wheels when the tires part company.

    Military Police use the Dragon 4X4 vehicle to some extent. It is superior to the MRAP in all but personnel capacity. But, whatever.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Generally speaking about MRAPs in a general sort of way. They are pretty worthless as a SWAT vehicle. They have a huge amount of ground clearance.
    1. High ground clearance makes them worthless to try to hide behind; you're exposing everything from the belly button down, and more, depending on officer height, to 'hostile fire' standing on the opposite side of one. Bullet resistant vests don't protect the 'giblets' or the legs.
    2. Anyone riding in the back has to negotiate steps to get down out of that high box in back. More exposure, and you're coming down facing the ladder to prevent doing a face plant in the pavement if you trip.
    3. They are seriously at a disadvantage on soft soil. FL has a lot of soft sand masquerading as soil making them useless off the pavement.
    4. They make a nice armored command post vehicle for radio and other communication, but don't really have much more purpose due to the above glaring deficiencies. Unless you're planning on rolling through one of those houses built on a concrete slab in FL to flush out the armed and barricaded individual. In that capacity, they might work O.K.
    5. They are just as susceptible to Molotov cocktails as most any other wheeled vehicle during a riot. Once the tires are on fire, their usefulness will soon be limited as they start running on the wheels when the tires part company.

    Military Police use the Dragon 4X4 vehicle to some extent. It is superior to the MRAP in all but personnel capacity. But, whatever.
    That is all fine and good, and you know how it is to add facts to a discussion around here.:nono:
    The MRAP is needed so the soldier wanabes can put on their multi-cam, and drop leg holsters. Over that the plate carrier that barely wraps around the oversized torso. And finally they can put on their ninjer mask, and feel all tactical while throwing flashbangs into cribs, killing the family dog, and executing no knocks on the wrong address.
    But hey I am ignorant after all, what do I know. Everybody needs an MRAP.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    I'm just going to step away from this discussion. I have some emotional connection to this matter that biases my viewpoint. Here are some honest introspections:

    Do ALL agencies need these things? No.
    Do SOME agencies need them? Yes.
    Are they an ideal vehicle? No.
    Are there better vehicles out there? Yes.

    And I am bias to my profession. I want the best tools possible available to my brothers and sisters so I don't have to attend anymore funerals. If that best available tool for an agency who can't really afford the up-front cost of specialized armored vehicles is a demilitarized vehicle, so be it.

    I'm not going to close with "if you only saw what I saw". That's a selfish attempt to pose on a soap box. And although I can have a narrow perspective at times, I try to keep a broad perspective and I encourage the same of others. There are many sides to the coin.

    Tubabucknut, no disrespect meant and I did not intend to infer you as a whole are ignorant.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »

    Do ALL agencies need these things? No.
    Do SOME agencies need them? Yes.
    Are they an ideal vehicle? No.
    Are there better vehicles out there? Yes.

    And I am bias to my profession. I want the best tools possible available to my brothers and sisters so I don't have to attend anymore funerals. If that best available tool for an agency who can't really afford the up-front cost of specialized armored vehicles is a demilitarized vehicle, so be it.
    Do you realize this is what I've been advocating all along? All of it.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Do you realize this is what I've been advocating all along? All of it.

    Yes. That was the point of my admission.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member
    Okay, understood.
    Overkill is underrated.
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