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Thoughts on this Vietnam War analysis?

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,577 Senior Member
I've been on a studying kick lately, pulling in information from all over to draw my own independent conclusions about some of the USA's macro and micro political incidents. Part of those independent conclusions stems from perspectives other than my own. Your thoughts on this analysis? The video is only about 6 minutes long.

The Truth about the Vietnam War: https://youtu.be/7hqYGHZCJwk
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers

Replies

  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,911 Senior Member
    As someone who was well aware of what was happening in those years, it proves that the commie-democraps will snatch a loss from the jaws of victory all most every time, and that only politics plays the hand that drives them. To put it bluntly....they suck and are American traitors in every way imaginable.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Jason, while the video you post is very interesting in regards to the war being waged at the time, it is moot to the entire issue.

    Here is a link to the Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us involved in the ground war. In summary, one event never occurred, and in the other we fired first. These events were used by the political class to get us into the war. 57,000 US soldiers killed because some elected A holes wanted to fight a war in southeast Asia. This is not tinfoil hat stuff. It is info declassified in 2005.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

    I no longer hold any animosity towards anyone who "dodged the draft". I would not fight in a made up war to force my world view on another individual either. I can not wrap my head around a mindset that makes up reasons to get our men and women in uniform killed.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,577 Senior Member
    Jason, while the video you post is very interesting in regards to the war being waged at the time, it is moot to the entire issue.

    Here is a link to the Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us involved in the ground war. In summary, one event never occurred, and in the other we fired first. These events were used by the political class to get us into the war. 57,000 US soldiers killed because some elected A holes wanted to fight a war in southeast Asia. This is not tinfoil hat stuff. It is info declassified in 2005.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

    I no longer hold any animosity towards anyone who "dodged the draft". I would not fight in a made up war to force my world view on another individual either. I can not wrap my head around a mindset that makes up reasons to get our men and women in uniform killed.

    I'm aware of how LBJ duped us into the war in the first place, but once we were there and committed to the damn thing, one may as well try and help the freakin South Vietnamese. Nixon's efforts aren't moot to the issue. He promised them this garbage we intervened in would be helped with supplies. Then, the Dems bail on them the INSTANT they have the opportunity to.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    I no longer hold any animosity towards anyone who "dodged the draft".

    What's that make the men that went? I have nothing but hate and discontent for a draft dodger.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    What's that make the men that went? I have nothing but hate and discontent for a draft dodger.
    A man has no right to tell his government to piss off, when they send him to die for no other reason than they wanted a war?

    Is your contention that if the government says jump, you say yes sir how high?

    Do you even realize what the link says? Your government made up the whole dawn thing. These men were sent to their deaths for a lie.

    So you believe they should just get on their knees and go because their told to?

    As to your other point. Those that went and those that died did so a hero. For your info, my father, and uncle both did tours there, and have the same opinion as I, now that they know the truth.

    Can you change a deep seated opinion in the face of new and overwhelming evidence? Time will tell.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    ...but once we were there and committed to the damn thing, one may as well try and help the freakin South Vietnamese.
    Agreed.

    The point I was making was the larger issue of getting involved at all. To the point in the video, yes we should honor commitments we make.
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    The Democraps will be funding new ISIS Goatburger restaurants if Hildebeast wins. Better vote once we have a cadidate or get ready. :fan: Later,

    Vietnam politics sucked but Mid East politics will suck more, you'll see.
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    Back in college (high school didn't touch on Vietnam beyond the year and the results) in my Contemporary Modern History the professor did lecture on the Paris Peace Accords and how the US did not follow though on them because of Nixon's resignation. He didn't have the same Dem analysis and such but if I remember his points the above video would kind of work with the above video.

    Scary thing, I can see a little of his theory in the way the US has acted in Iraq and ISIS today ... but it is the POSUS doing it now.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,576 Senior Member
    Well, I was over there and when I was there, we weren't losing.

    There is NO advantage to losing a war, however flawed the reason for entering the war. I don't see a lot of reasoning behind non-intervention given the politics of then and now.

    I suspect tubabucknut is guilty of judging a past situation with the advantage of hindsight. In other words, Monday morning quarterbacking.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    A man has no right to tell his government to piss off, when they send him to die for no other reason than they wanted a war?

    Is your contention that if the government says jump, you say yes sir how high?

    Do you even realize what the link says? Your government made up the whole dawn thing. These men were sent to their deaths for a lie.

    So you believe they should just get on their knees and go because their told to?

    As to your other point. Those that went and those that died did so a hero. For your info, my father, and uncle both did tours there, and have the same opinion as I, now that they know the truth.

    Can you change a deep seated opinion in the face of new and overwhelming evidence? Time will tell.

    Well said. I, also have several relatives who served in Vietnam. They unanimously agree that if they knew then, what they know now, they wouldn't have gone then.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Best book I've read on Viet Nam was written by Stanley Karnow, "A Military History of Viet Nam." It starts about 600 years ago with the Chinese invasion and ends with General Giap putting his feet up on the US Ambassador's desk in the Embassy after our last chopper left in 1975.

    Although Karnow was a NY Times editor, the book avoids the political rhetoric and focuses on why Indochina became such a focal point in the Cold War.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    I, also have several relatives who served in Vietnam. They unanimously agree that if they knew then, what they know now, they wouldn't have gone then.

    Luis

    If my aunt had balls she would be my uncle.

    If I knew then what I know now I would have stayed in for 20.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,576 Senior Member
    Jeeper wrote: »
    Well said. I, also have several relatives who served in Vietnam. They unanimously agree that if they knew then, what they know now, they wouldn't have gone then.

    Luis

    About 20 years ago, I was asked "if you had known then...." and I thought about it for a bit and said Yes. I would. Can't turn your back on your country, right or wrong. I'm not sure what gives people moral authority to refuse service. Some of the finest men I know served over there.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,911 Senior Member
    You know, the real opposition to Viet Nam didn't really start until around 1968 during the DNC convention and more so after Nixon was elected president. I wonder why the democommies didn't do anything before that when the war was at it's height.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,576 Senior Member
    Opposition was always there but gained strength after the Tet Offensive. The press really bought in to the opposition it after Saigon almost fell after they'd been falsely told the VC and NVA were nearly defeated. Mia Lai turned a lot of people against it.

    Kinda like saying ISIS is the Junior Varsity team.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,826 Senior Member
    Just like we are seeing now the Domestic Enemy party snatched defeat from the jaws of victory.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    On the torpedo event of the first day, that was the real deal and there are photos of the torpedo boats lining up for a run. Yeah, we fired warning shots, and we fired first. It's easy for Monday Morning Quarterbacks to 'analize' that situation. A torpedo is WAY FASTER than any warship we had then. or NOW. Let that sink in.............A torpedo hit amidships on a destroyer would likely break her back, and sink her fairly fast. If not sunk, a torpedo hit amidships would definitely do extensive damage to the engine room and put her near dead in the water. You want to see a collective sphincter tightening on the bridge, just watch when the bridge crew gets the word "torpedo noise spoke bearing XXX degrees" gets passed to them by sonar crew. The warning shots were entirely justified given the situation. Hell fire! It ain't like you can jump behind a rock and hide out there on the ocean! He who fires first and fires accurately wins.

    And anybody denigrating the actions taken on that first day with the torpedo boats, I'll tell you flat out that you're a real piece of work for talking smack about something you know nothing about. And as to accuracy of fire from the destroyer, try hitting something as small as a glorified cigarette boat running wide open with guns made for hitting a ship destroyer sized or larger from a rolling and pitching deck. They didn't have GPS guided munitions back then. It's pretty much the equivalent of trying to dove hunt with a .460 Weatherby Magnum. It sucks, and you are lucky to get a direct hit in 1 in 1,000 shots fired. So you run the guns past their rated rate of safe fire to protect the ship, because if it gets shot out from under you, you ain't walking to shore.

    The second night when all the firing took place, I will give them a huge benefit of the doubt on that. Having been spooked the day before is good reason not to take chances. Ghost radar contacts were not all that abnormal for surface search radar. If someone shoots at you when you're in International waters, you by gawd got a right to shoot back and try to kill them first.

    LBJ did want to get involved in Viet Nam; it was the cold war and the fight to stop the spread of Communism was both warm and hot. There were some shenanigans pulled in the White House after the second 'encounter', and that's a fact. I don't know what the destroyers saw on radar, and don't have any first hand accounts related to me personally, but I still give them a huge amount of leeway in that they believed, rightly or wrongly, that they were protecting their ships, and any Captain who won't act to protect his ship and crew is unfit for command of a harbor tug. I have talked to quite a few destroyer and cruiser sailors who fought sea battles in the Pacific in WWII, and they all feared a torpedo attack from a Japanese sub.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    I imagine folks who didn't fight in Iraq or Afghanistan will be having this discussion 40 years from now.

    It is my understanding we were in a ground war in Vietnam as soon as we sent advisors in the late 50s. It is just no one wanted to realize it.

    If you look at the string of events from Yalta to the fall of the wall in 1989, the Vietnam war was necessary to arrive at the events of 1988-1999.

    And Yes, if your country calls you to defend democracy, no matter where it is, you go. That's what Americans do. That is what we have always done since before we were a nation of 50 years.
    There is a difference between your nation calling you to defend democracy and asking you to jump....
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 5,032 Senior Member
    I watched the video, and IMO that's what happened, it shouldn't surprise anyone as that's what J.F.K. and the dumbos did during the Bay of Pigs invasion of Cuba, during the most crucial tine they pulled back all support.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 5,032 Senior Member
    It is my understanding we were in a ground war in Vietnam as soon as we sent advisors in the late 50s. It is just no one wanted to realize it.


    And Yes, if your country calls you to defend democracy, no matter where it is, you go. That's what Americans do. That is what we have always done since before we were a nation of 50 years.....

    In the 50s there was a lot of talk abut sending advisors to Vietnam to protect the Michelin rubber plantations and the gas and oil reserves in the Gulf of Tonkin.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Yes, if your country calls you to defend democracy, no matter where it is, you go. That's what Americans do.

    Unfortunately, not any more. The sniveling cowards too self-centered to put on a uniform, who make up 98% of this nation now hide under the bed and suck their thumbs. Brave men and women like you and other active duty patriots, and the citizen soldiers of the National Guard suit up and go willingly into Hell to protect their sorry butts! Whiz on all of them!
    Jerry
  • woodsrunnerwoodsrunner Senior Member Posts: 2,725 Senior Member
    IMO we are cross-examining three aspects of this War:
    1. Strategic
    2. Operational
    3. Tactical

    From a strategic aspect I question why we were there to begin with, though at the time I was totally in support of our efforts. I marched in support of Lt. Calley after Mei Lai or however it is spelled. I volunteered for duty in 'Nam, but the Navy had other plans for me. (Some of us had to keep an eye on Ivan, you know :wink:). I still think, to this day, that it was a world market situation that put us there, and the rights and protection of human beings was far down the list of importance.

    From an operational standpoint our hands (the military) were tied, largely, by the politicians for some reason that I don't fully understand. I had little involvement in the War beyond doing Intel work on the POW-MIA situation, but it was very evident to the active military on the ground at the time as well as to those like me, little involved and serving in other areas of defense, that we could have successfully from a "tactical" standpoint kicked ass and come home very quickly. Our hands were tied, operationally, for strategic reasons I don't comprehend.

    Tactical: Mike covers this very well with his observations on tin cans being torpedo targets. If you are put in a situation where you are a target for destruction, kill first and be very effective with it. It's that simple....just like carrying concealed.

    But bring all of this to the table right now.....In my opinion, "My Country, My Country. May She always be right, but My Country even though She may be wrong"!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    If you go back and look at the kitchen debate between Kruschev and Nixon, you can see where Khrushchev showed his hand. From that point on, we knew we had to press a war in Asia.
    Khrushchev repeatedly wanted the U.S. to withdraw troops from foreign soil and Russia would do the same. I would like to think Nixon and others realized if we did that, Russia would keep their word, but would use their proxy nations to expand the influence they couldn't.
    Just like at Yalta and subsequent conferences, Russia didn't go back their word but they didn't keep it either.
    Vietnam had to happen. The U.S. Had to show the world it would wage war for democracy and interests. The U.S. also had to continue bleeding the Russian war industry and economy. If Afghanistan would not have come along, I have no doubt the next proxy fight would have been in central or South America.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    As someone who was well aware of what was happening in those years, it proves that the commie-democraps will snatch a loss from the jaws of victory all most every time, and that only politics plays the hand that drives them. To put it bluntly....they suck and are American traitors in every way imaginable.
    As someone who was well aware of what was happening in those years, it proves that the commie-democraps will snatch a loss from the jaws of victory all most every time, and that only politics plays the hand that drives them. To put it bluntly....they suck and are American traitors in every way imaginable.

    And then, the dumb ass American people have let the Dummycraps do it again in the Middle East! For one thing the Dummycrap Commies just couldn't stand that a Republican Regime had tamed a Muslim country and allowed the freedom loving people there opportunity to have a much better life. There outta be a special place in Hell for these Commie Jerks!!!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Jason, while the video you post is very interesting in regards to the war being waged at the time, it is moot to the entire issue.

    Here is a link to the Gulf of Tonkin incident which got us involved in the ground war. In summary, one event never occurred, and in the other we fired first. These events were used by the political class to get us into the war. 57,000 US soldiers killed because some elected A holes wanted to fight a war in southeast Asia. This is not tinfoil hat stuff. It is info declassified in 2005.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gulf_of_Tonkin_incident

    I no longer hold any animosity towards anyone who "dodged the draft". I would not fight in a made up war to force my world view on another individual either. I can not wrap my head around a mindset that makes up reasons to get our men and women in uniform killed.

    Tuba, Me thinks ye been brain washed.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
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