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Greece debt crisis: IMF payment missed as bailout expires

shushshush Senior MemberPosts: 6,259 Senior Member
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33339363

"Greece has missed the deadline for a €1.6bn (£1.1bn) payment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), hours after eurozone ministers refused to extend its bailout."


The-End-is-Nigh-2012.jpg

Thank goodness for the £.

Replies

  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-33339363

    "Greece has missed the deadline for a €1.6bn (£1.1bn) payment to the International Monetary Fund (IMF), hours after eurozone ministers refused to extend its bailout."




    Thank goodness for the £.

    At least there's that.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    Naah! Been there in the late '80s when crazed president in power decided not to pay the "abusive" IMF debt, and along with his absurd economic measures (Pretty much the same Venezuela is currently doing), pushed us to a yearly inflation that reached 2 million plus % (Yes, TWO MILLION %).

    Back then, our state worked pretty much like the Greece bureaucracy seems to operate: 3 people doing the same needless job (Like stamping & filing copies of a document that state that your driver's license is real or such), with huge salaries and treats (Less working hours, payed lunches, month-long vacations, etc.), early retirement and pensions upgraded to the same levels of salary working employees own; that along with rampant corruption, micromanagement, needless paperwork for everything, union strikes, blatant incompetence and political influences pushed us not to the edge of the abyss, but down to the bottom itself (Considering we were also facing an internal war against Maoist terrorists that made ISIS look like girl scouts).

    They and their socialist policies put them at the current situation, and still refuse to let go. Let them hit the ground as we did and find the solution from their problems (Basically stop behaving like they're living in a fiscal Springbreak and start assuming the attitude of post WWII Japan or post-war Korea).
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    Puerto Rico is in the same situation, and a U.S. bailout isn't going to happen.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    It's hard to sympathize when not that long ago, Greece was boasting one of the lowest retirement ages in the world at 57 along with averaging 33 days a year of paid vacation and holidays. At 57 everyone got a full pension. The US by comparison averages 16 days a year of combined vacation and holidays and they're not always paid for everyone. About a fourth of Americans don't get any vacation days at all and of course we don't get our full social security benefits until 66 and many Americans don't get any type of a pension and have to retire with just their social security benifits. Greece did it to themselves and they really don't deserve to have anyone bail them out.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    The olive oil business ain't what it used to be.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    The current situation is completely untenable. They will never be able to pay off their debt. Best bet is to let the darn thing crash, write off the debt and let them begin recovering. Bankruptcy sucks and it sucks both for the ones going bankrupt and for the lenders who won't get paid, but better to get it over with and move on. If they would have just defaulted at the beginning and left the euro then, they'd almost certainly be in better shape today than they are now.

    Don't have the numbers, but if we could, they can. Problems are that they (Meaning the public living out of the State handouts and the politicians) don't want to tighten up their belts, and that the free-loader attitude gives poor signals to all the debt holders (Both private speculators and the EU). Maybe showing REAL signs of commitment might buy them some more time, understanding and help from the guys they own money to, but hiding the utilities bills under the rug won't make the debt disappear...sooner or later someone will have to honor the loans.

    From what I've read, they need to cut down their early retirement plans, lower the pensions, trim the bureaucrat fat and privatize their State-controlled infrastructure (Ports, airports, roads, trains, public transport, communications, etc.), while giving investors abroad the security of a cozy investing environment.

    Pretty much what we had to do in the '90s to be internationally reliable again, but that means taking REAL decisions, stepping in a LOT of fat toes, securing yourself the eternal hate of a good chunk of society (Mostly public employees and those employed in mercantilism-driven business, and politicians (Specially the left)......maybe even face severe legal reprisals from your enemies for your success (President who did that is currently imprisoned partly because of this....socialists HATE to see polarizing problems being solved).

    Not sure of the full consequences of Greece leaving the Euro....they're like 2% of the E.U. economy and unlike other trembling partners like Spain, they have little strategic value and less population. Might be cheaper to the big pockets to assume their debt in front of others and just get rid of the troublesome little **** with nothing more to offer than nice tourism attractions and some agricultural products.

    Meanwhile, THIS is the time to visit Greece with cash in your pocket....friends of mine did the same in the Argentinian meltdown back in '01 and virtually behaved as 19th. century drunk occupation troops with just a little money, since U.S. currency in the hand was for a while the only financial document you could trust on!

    Whatever happens, would be an interesting lesson for everyone...too bad they didn't learn from the same idiotic financial mistakes our S.A. leaders made in the '70s...
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Stockton, CA, Detroit, Greece, Puerto Rico, Illinois...the progressive agenda marches on. Their almost secret, rarely mentioned goal, of the 'end of money as we know it' is advancing baby step after baby step. Dontcha see, when liberal governments have finally taxed, borrowed, and blown all the money there is, and even printing Monopoly money as fast as they can, nobody can afford to pay anybody back, and unavoidable inflation makes all money worthless anyway, the whole rotten structure of banksters, capitalists, and the godawful 1% comes crashing down. Whatever the Left has in mind to replace money with, you can be sure it will be structured to achieve universal dependence and the full equality of outcomes - the final solution to the oppressive, racist, bigoted, homophobic, Islamophobic, sexist, exploitative, and insufferable injustices of earned wealth and self-reliance.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 20,552 Senior Member
    The GDP of Greece is approximately 2% of the EU, OR, to put it in US terms, is roughly the same as the state of Alabama's

    let 'em burn
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    knitepoet wrote: »
    The GDP of Greece is approximately 2% of the EU, OR, to put it in US terms, is roughly the same as the state of Alabama's

    let 'em burn

    :that:
    I'd say let 'em pound sand. But I've been to Greece; rocks they got aplenty, but sand is in very short supply. The other countries in the EU can absorb the loss, and they should never have let Greece into the EU in the first place.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • Fat BillyFat Billy Senior Member Posts: 1,813 Senior Member
    Cheaper yogurt? :uhm: Later,
    Fat Billy

    Recoil is how you know primer ignition is complete.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    More than likely. "Extend and Pretend" has become the mantra of global finance.

    Not wholly unlike 'owing your soul to the company store" in the Appalachian coal mines.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    Not wholly unlike 'owing your soul to the company store"

    That is not too far from the truth, my mate.



    Check out the graphics on this site, disconcerting to say the least. :yikes:

    http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

    euro_debt_crisis-bank-exposure-euro_2_billion.jpg

    €2 Billion - A Truck Load Full of Cash
    €2,000,000,000 - Greece's budget deficit was €24,125,000,000 in 2011, that's 12 of these trucks



    Being outside the euro area of monetary union.

    The €-euro..............The £-Pound

    The UK is not that exposed, about 10.5 bn. I think and that is Private Banks not government.

    Just loose change to some. :yawn:


    Anyway, what's a couple of bob, here and there.



  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,105 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    That is not too far from the truth, my mate.



    Check out the graphics on this site, disconcerting to say the least. :yikes:

    http://demonocracy.info/infographics/eu/debt_greek/debt_greek.html

    euro_debt_crisis-bank-exposure-euro_2_billion.jpg

    €2 Billion - A Truck Load Full of Cash
    €2,000,000,000 - Greece's budget deficit was €24,125,000,000 in 2011, that's 12 of these trucks



    Being outside the euro area of monetary union.

    The €-euro..............The £-Pound

    The UK is not that exposed, about 10.5 bn. I think and that is Private Banks not government.

    Just loose change to some. :yawn:


    Anyway, what's a couple of bob, here and there.




    That's the problem with governments. We regular folk (those with more than two brain cells to rub together) have only so much income so we make a budget and stick to it. And we save for a rainy day or those unexpected expenses that crop up from time to time. And any loan that is taken out is carefully studied beforehand to ensure we can pay it off and still have food on the table and a roof over our heads.

    Governments, on the other hand, tend to have no fiscal responsibility. They borrow at a prodigious rate. And they mostly don't care as they will be leaving the filthy steaming pile of a mess for the next elected idiot in line to pick up, and he does the same. And the proletariat ALWAYS votes in the politicians that promise them the most free stuff. They do this because they are totally and wholly ignorant of where the government normally gets money; those income taxes, and other taxes and fees. So the government promises, then borrows the money to pay for the freebies promised, and debt rises to the point that it can't be paid back, EVER. Two choices then, bankruptcy or austerity programs.

    Bankruptcy and austerity programs have the same pitfalls. The people deprived of their freebies chafe under the yoke of fiscal responsibility; they demand the return of the bread and circuses. Nice recipe for a revolt.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    BIG problem of leaving the E.U. would be that there will be no "exhaust vent" for the chunk of the population that while still being part of the Union might be able to freely migrate to other European countries to work once the situation becomes (more) unsustainable. Once out of the Union, they'll need a Visa to travel abroad, or become illegal immigrants & low-paid temporal workers, thus not contributing a lot with foreign currency to their families still living in Greece and therefore to their country's economy. Out of the Euro, probably the "New Dracma" won't be worth a lot, nor be able to purchase any imported goods (Hope Greeks at least have their own medicine, toilet paper, milk, sugar and fuel production facilities, or they'll have a HARD time finding those....ask Venezuelans!)

    Here there must be like 2 million peruvians living & working abroad, most in Spain, Europe and the U.S. that fled in the mid-'80s, and the money they send back isn't peanuts, but we're a society used to be derelict, to live frugally, to navigate in illegal waters, and to distrust the State and view it as something a bit better than an obstructive racketeer mobster....will Greeks be ready to pick the trash in Germany, or make gardening jobs in France? Will they be able to compete with Sub-Saharian & Eastern European migrants for such menial jobs?

    PRIVATE banks can literally throw their money to companies that show no profits....even Governments can do it for a while, but not State institutions to rouge countries since there's literally NOTHING to repo to get some of your money back, or at least some kind of deal that might secure any form of payment (You won't see the IMF pulling a bridge or a pier and towing it). Business don't have seniors lying on their waste in derelict hospital beds, or half naked starving children wondering the streets begging for change, or families scrounging the trash to find something to eat, all on live TV.....countries do, and local politicians will use them as a bargaining chip to pull another load of money from the "evil" loaners and to extend the payment deadlines.

    China or Russia buying the debt and pulling them to "their side"? This isn't the cold war anymore, and any country (Specially like Greece, with no better world politics "pull" than the Guyanas) adopting an open communist or socialist regime will end up even worse that at the beginning....virtually an imploding economical suicide. Having the Russians or Chinese as major stockholders is a bit of dealing your soul with the devil too, since their business practices aren't usually the cleanest around, and sincerely I don't see the Greek economy or market potential (Specially under current circumstances) as something they'll droll about....maybe Iran or N.K. can lend them money? Venezuela?

    Let's wait and see....won't be a lesson to anyone since every country thinks they can do better (Check Argentina, in the early '50s with the potential of becoming another Australia, now with 30%+ of yearly inflation and a government that claims to have a poverty level above Germany while showing the practices of the old Chicago mafia), but surely an interesting thing to analyze. At least local economists are delighted, since it's funny to see another guy trying to do the same drunk motorcyclist somersault you did years ago and local commies encourage to commit year after year
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    More proof that elections have consequences. We are sailing over the same cliff with no one to bail us out.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    Antonio, a quick clarification: Greece would potentially leave the eurozone (currency union using the Euro currency), not the European Union. Lots of countries are members of the EU but don't use the Euro currency.

    Really? That's quite cozy for them....their present commie leaders should "put their money where their mouth is" and go "full Monty" on the E.U.....at least to show them a lesson and don't mess with Greece! :rotflmao:

    Yes, similar irresponsible fiscal behavior can cause economic troubles in the U.S., but I hardly see such a possible meltdown, since you have a HUGE economic potential and the size of your market is astonishing compared to Greece's. Unlike them, you have lots of educated and skilled human resources, immense energy sources, enormous land extension, forest & mining richness, and don't even mention infrastructure! Greece is pretty much a bunch of rocks with nice beaches and very nice antique monuments, but unlike say Japan (That is pretty much the same), they currently seem to lack the sacrifice spirit that can take them out of their troubles.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    The Greeks have capitulated( took the money ), sad day for democracy.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    can kicked, now we just get to wait to see how far down the road it will tumble.


    This chap is very good;

    Robert Peston
    Economics editor
    9 hours ago


    How damaged is eurozone and EU by Greek debacle?

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-33503330


    "There would in effect be a takeover, for years, of Greece by Berlin, Brussels and the IMF...........

    Monitors, from the IMF, would be permanently stationed in Athens, to prevent backsliding by the administration.

    Privatisation proceeds would be put into some kind of escrow account, possibly in Luxembourg.

    Athens would be deprived of even a figleaf of national economic autonomy."
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,259 Senior Member
    Oh yes.

    More to come.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,351 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    It's hard to sympathize when not that long ago, Greece was boasting one of the lowest retirement ages in the world at 57 along with averaging 33 days a year of paid vacation and holidays. At 57 everyone got a full pension. The US by comparison averages 16 days a year of combined vacation and holidays and they're not always paid for everyone. About a fourth of Americans don't get any vacation days at all and of course we don't get our full social security benefits until 66 and many Americans don't get any type of a pension and have to retire with just their social security benifits. Greece did it to themselves and they really don't deserve to have anyone bail them out.

    Greece is the perfect example of a socialistic nightmare. That's where we'll end up if we don't get rid of the Dummycraps.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,351 Senior Member
    Lots of fancy language and theories being offered here. The problem as I see it is way yonder more simple than this. All this comes with the journey to world wide socialism. The powers that be want all people and nations dependent on one body. Hence; a One World Society. It's all about power for a few. When people don't have to do anything or be accountable and everything is given to them, it's not good. It sets us up for the big fall. Greece just seems to be headed there first.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    PTB will DO ANYTHING to keep their plan on track...
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    shush wrote: »
    The Greeks have capitulated( took the money ), sad day for democracy.

    A much sadder day for the citizens of the nations who have worked their entire lives to earn and create the wealth their leaders have so capriciously and irresponsibly redistributed to the greedy, petulant, demanding beggars of Greece. Abandon all hope ye who loan money there! As for the fate of Greek democracy, if they're going to elect socialists (classic kakistocracy), of what use is it anyway?
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,351 Senior Member
    horselips wrote: »
    A much sadder day for the citizens of the nations who have worked their entire lives to earn and create the wealth their leaders have so capriciously and irresponsibly redistributed to the greedy, petulant, demanding beggars of Greece. Abandon all hope ye who loan money there! As for the fate of Greek democracy, if they're going to elect socialists (classic kakistocracy), of what use is it anyway?
    Exactly! It's like you're on a ship and you have two crews working independently. One crew is reparing holes in the bottom, and the other crew is drilling more holes, and the water keeps pouring in but it takes longer to repair a hole than it does to drill one and the repair crew is getting behind and the water level inside the ship is rising and it will eventually sink the ship.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    PTB decree socialism must not fail (No matter what)
  • HvyMaxHvyMax Senior Member Posts: 1,786 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    Greece is the perfect example of a socialistic nightmare. That's where we'll end up if we don't get rid of the Dummycraps.

    The modern Democrat party is the Communist party of 70 years ago. They have completed every aspect of their plan to destroy this once great nation but civilian disarmament and we see how they are pushing that.
    Wal Mart where the discriminating white trash shop.
    Paddle faster!!! I hear banjos.
    Reason for editing: correcting my auto correct
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,161 Senior Member
    The Germans also have a bit of experience in what sorts of things can happen when the rest of Europe gangs up on one country and forces crushing austerity programs and unpayable debt burdens on them...

    No one FORCED Greece to go into debt. The rest of the country's are saying that they actually have to pay what they owe. To do that Greece has to make REAL reforms. Working a 40 hour week isnt exactly a crushing reform. Not getting paid to stay home isnt a crushing reform. Not paying 10 people to do the job of one isnt a crushing reform.
    There is exactly ZERO comparison between the excessive punitive acts against post WW1 Germany and anything done to or by Greece.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,595 Senior Member
    Some Greek data a local economist has gathered:

    - Innovation degree is very low for a "1st. world country; Greeks register 70 patents per million inhabitants; Germany registers over 1,000

    - 18% of national budget goes to finance the pension system

    - Almost half of Greek homes have a State's pension as main income source

    - One of every 4 Greeks gets a pension, many of them retired at 55 years of age.

    - Public debt is close to 180% of its I.N.P.

    - Unemployment levels are 25%.....50% for young adults.

    Go figure....
  • Gator MonroeGator Monroe Banned Posts: 655 Senior Member
    You know its bad when they are thinking of going to Bulgaria or Macedonia or Albania/Kosovo for Part Time Work ...
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