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.243 - 85 grain or 100 grain?

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  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Good post, Linefinder - glad to see you posting, again. I've missed your level-headed commentary. :up:
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    It's simple for me. If I had a butt load of Varget, I would find a load that worked.

    Exactly. I intend to do the same with the 8 lbs. of Universal Clays I have, for my handguns.

    Mrs. Bisley freaked out when I bought out an 'estate' sale of an old ammo hoarder, a few years ago. I spent $400 and got 32 lbs. of powder, about 10,000 pieces of brass, most of it new and some of it factory primed, and a couple thousand bullets. I sold enough .223 and .308 once fired brass to recoup my investment, and kept most of the new stuff. It's been laying around for about three years, and now, with the new Chargemaster and my retirement, I feel like I'm making money every time I load.

    If I ever get easy access to a 600 yard range, I'm quite sure I will buy a rifle and work up a load that can take advantage of it.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Try some 95gr Federal Fusions factory loads, for science.

    What can you tell me about them? I may get around to that, if I get to keep my .243. I elected to go .308, back when I bought my first center fire, and have been ignoring .243 for 45 years, even though I knew it was a great cartridge. Now that I finally have a good one, I'm really impressed.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,545 Senior Member
    bisley,
    All fun aside, every gun is different.
    Even if you use a powder (because you have a lot of it) that is 200-300 fps slower than say H-4350, if it gives you the accuracy you desire for the task (whatever that is).
    My short-barreled 6mm's run about 200-300 fps slower than they would in rifle lengths, and I have no problem shooting tight groups at 6 in good conditions.
    Great snag on those components by the way!
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    What can you tell me about them? I may get around to that, if I get to keep my .243. I elected to go .308, back when I bought my first center fire, and have been ignoring .243 for 45 years, even though I knew it was a great cartridge. Now that I finally have a good one, I'm really impressed.

    I have not used the Federal Fusions in .243 yet but the .223 load is stupid accurate in every gun I have tried it in. I even managed to flinch out a dime sized group with my H&R .223 with it.
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,051 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Ernie,

    I agree with Zee. Varget does suck. It performs adequately across a wide range but excels at nothing, except maybe the .308 Win.

    Mike
    So far 06 also. Like I said, it is a darling at the CMP matches in Garands and 03's. I tried the tried and true powders for 06 in the 03AFaux but Varget was better grouping and more consistent getting me to a speed I wanted, 2800fps which is plenty fast out of a 06. It seems to work well at 300 and 600 so I am not complaining. I should have measured my test group for the 22-250 because I shot it on mild steel at 200 and the holes are still there, it looks like it is pretty well under 1.5, but the load is a little slower than the old IMR load, by 150fps ish.

    If you can get a 100gr SGK to run anywhere from 2500-3K out of your 243 with the accuracy you want, it will drop deer out to 250yds. They are NOT tanks, they do not have reactive ceramic armor and they wont eat you if they dont fall over instantly. It isnt that hard to take one. Pigs, I dont know anything about..... yet.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,367 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    What can you tell me about them? I may get around to that, if I get to keep my .243. I elected to go .308, back when I bought my first center fire, and have been ignoring .243 for 45 years, even though I knew it was a great cartridge. Now that I finally have a good one, I'm really impressed.

    Fairly inexpensive bonded bullet, the kids Mossberg ATR loves the bullet, no autopsy photos to show. It is the Speer Deep Curl bullet.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Kewl! If you want to jerk Zed's chain, I'm down with that.

    What's the plan?

    Mike

    PSSST< Quietly now, we don't want to wake him, but if you desire to yank his chain just recommend he buy a Savage 110 or 112 in .270 Winchester. But then again he prolly ain't cultured enough to appreciate such a fine Shootin' piece of work!

    _____:popcorn:_____:cuss:_____:yikes:_____:fan:

    _____:rotflmao:_____:rotflmao:_____:rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    Yep. I reckon that if that was not a very heavy barreled affair on my gun, it might have turned into a pipe bomb. Lesson learned. Which bring us to another good point that you and I have discussed extensively: lot-to-lot powder burn rate variance. That's another one that can, at best, cause accuracy issues and at worst, turn a razor's edge hot load into a very dangerous one in a hurry. Always be wary out what the next pound (or eight) brings.

    I'm going to say this and in the same breath I will also say, I don't always do this, but back in my formative reloading days, my Speer book, the one that's right by me at this moment, taught me something where it says when ever you're getting close to a max load, and you change any component, Primer, Bullet shape(Can be the same weight but different Ogive, bullet shank length that affects contact with barrel, whatever change that makes it different) you should drop back 10% on powder and work back up slowly, this includes when changing lots of powder too. Like I said, I don't always do it. but if I would think about my past experiences and think about threads like this, I would live by that advice more closely. But sometimes I get in a hurry and throw caution to the wind. That's really stupid. It just takes one time to take the time to do it that can pay big dividends.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • HAWKENHAWKEN Senior Member Posts: 1,720 Senior Member
    I have been loading 100 grain Nosler partitions over maximum doses of H1000. I don't have a chronograph but published data says it is 3000 fps. That load has harvested 36 whitetail deer and three hogs. robin
    I don't often talk to people that voted for Obama, but when I do I order large fries!
    Life member of the American Legion, the VFW, the NRA and the Masonic Lodge, retired LEO
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    snake284 wrote: »
    I'm going to say this and in the same breath I will also say, I don't always do this, but back in my formative reloading days, my Speer book, the one that's right by me at this moment, taught me something where it says when ever you're getting close to a max load, and you change any component, Primer, Bullet shape(Can be the same weight but different Ogive, bullet shank length that affects contact with barrel, whatever change that makes it different) you should drop back 10% on powder and work back up slowly, this includes when changing lots of powder too. Like I said, I don't always do it. but if I would think about my past experiences and think about threads like this, I would live by that advice more closely. But sometimes I get in a hurry and throw caution to the wind. That's really stupid. It just takes one time to take the time to do it that can pay big dividends.

    If I don't have the manufacturers data on the specific bullet I want to use, I usually split the difference between Min. and Max. load, and up it 0.5 grain per test load. I'm waiting to go test the .243 rounds in question with three different charges for both the 85 and 100 grain. This has usually resulted in getting a group I will accept, just below max load. If I have good data from the powder manufacturer, I will usually load three sets at 0.5 increments, from max to 1.0 grain under, and work back up the ladder toward max load. Since I don't use a chrony, this seems to be a sane enough system to keep me from worrying too much about exceeding pressure limits by too much.

    No doubt, I could push it more, but once I get into the sub-MOA realm, I'm usually wasting my time to keep pushing it, with my equipment and ability. My AR in .223 is the only possible exception, so far. The 20" heavy barrel and NM trigger give it greater possibilities for precision than most of my other rifles. The .243 might be another, but I haven't shot it enough to know for sure, yet. It is a strictly 'stock' rifle, but seems to be a very good one, so far.
  • 41magnut41magnut Senior Member Posts: 1,274 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Varget SUCKS............in my book.

    At least........in everything I've tried it in.










    It just doesn't like me.
    Hmmm? I've had the opposite experience.

    Varget worked well in everything I have used it in. My "go to" propellant for 308W, Sierra 155 gn. Palma loads.

    My only complaint is, it is hard to come by these days.
    justin10mm wrote: »
    Winchester 100gr Power points are giant killers.
    bisley wrote: »
    Because?

    All I want to do is send a 85 or 100 grain bullet at ~3000 fps. The H4350 does not appear to give higher velocities in the recipes I looked at, so what other factors are involved?

    PS: I do trust your experience and judgment - I just wonder if your judgment on this subject might specifically apply to the type of use you had for them, and would not matter so much for my own use. This is basically a secondary rifle for limited use at distances under 200 yards.


    Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen :iwo:
  • 41magnut41magnut Senior Member Posts: 1,274 Senior Member
    41magnut wrote: »
    Hmmm? I've had the opposite experience.

    Varget worked well in everything I have used it in. My "go to" propellant for 308W, Sierra 155 gn. Palma loads.

    My only complaint is, it is hard to come by these days.





    Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
    Linefinder wrote: »
    Ernie,

    I agree with Zee. Varget does suck. It performs adequately across a wide range but excels at nothing, except maybe the .308 Win.

    Mike
    I know.
    Just wanted to jerk Z's chain.
    I use H-4350 for my 6XC, 6mm Long Dasher, and 243 Win


    Sent from my SM-T520 using Tapatalk
    "The .30-06 is never a mistake." Townsend Whelen :iwo:
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Both my .22-250's love Varget- - - -sub-MOA groups are the norm, and it's not uncommon to get cloverleaf groups at 100 yards, and quarter-sized groups at 200. I don't remember chrono speeds offhand, but the groundhogs just keel over every time I hit one.
    Jerry
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    Linefinder wrote: »
    I have a 6mm Rem which is a .243 Win on mild steroids.

    I can tell you with wholehearted conviction that a 95 Nosler Ballistic Tip over H4350 is a death ray on antelope (even at a quarter mile), and should do just as well on whitetail.

    I've also seen some pretty banged up deer shot with a .243 Win loaded with Winchester 100 grain Power Points.

    Hogs.....can't tell you, I've never shot one with the 6mm, but I'd likely load up some 100 grain Partitions for them critters.

    Mike

    This is the load I shoot from my .243, sort of. I use the same powder and bullet in my .243, but with a slightly smaller powder charge due to the difference in case capacity. Like Mike said, it works very well on antelope, including the 400+ yard kill I watched him make. Also, I picked this load well before I met Mike, and he settled on his load before he met me. In other words, we both decided to go with NBTs without consulting the other.

    For hogs, though, I don't think I would go with NBTs It's my understanding that you may have to break or shoot through a shoulder to get to the heart, and I just don't think the NBTs are tough enough for that. So, I'd probably go with a 100 grain bullet of your choice.

    I think if I were going to hunt hogs with my .243, I would go with Speer Grand Slam 100 grain bullets. It's by far my favorite bullet for heavier game where you may have to smash through a heavy bone. I've killed elk, deer and antelope with the bullet from a number of chamberings, and never had a failure. But, as they say, your mileage may vary.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    Horse doctored, sneakers on MC

    34 gr imr4064. Didnt write the fps on this box but I am pretty sure it was right close to 3800

    3800 fps MV is not realistic from a .243 shooting 100 grain bullets. You're doing good to push 3000.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    This is the load I shoot from my .243, sort of. I use the same powder and bullet in my .243, but with a slightly smaller powder charge due to the difference in case capacity. Like Mike said, it works very well on antelope, including the 400+ yard kill I watched him make. Also, I picked this load well before I met Mike, and he settled on his load before he met me. In other words, we both decided to go with NBTs without consulting the other.

    For hogs, though, I don't think I would go with NBTs It's my understanding that you may have to break or shoot through a shoulder to get to the heart, and I just don't think the NBTs are tough enough for that. So, I'd probably go with a 100 grain bullet of your choice.

    I think if I were going to hunt hogs with my .243, I would go with Speer Grand Slam 100 grain bullets. It's by far my favorite bullet for heavier game where you may have to smash through a heavy bone. I've killed elk, deer and antelope with the bullet from a number of chamberings, and never had a failure. But, as they say, your mileage may vary.

    Jerry, I'm here to tell you, you don't need such a tough bullet for a hog. I've shot at least 4 with Ballistic Tips. They die immediately. My little .250 Savage loaded with a 115 grain Combined Technologies Ballistic Tip kills them DRT and at least one of those kills was well in excess of 120 yards. Hogs, like Whitetail aren't tanks. I shot one with my .270 out at 320 yards with a 130 grain Game King Through the Shoulder, and he ran about 15 yards and died right there.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    If I don't have the manufacturers data on the specific bullet I want to use, I usually split the difference between Min. and Max. load, and up it 0.5 grain per test load. I'm waiting to go test the .243 rounds in question with three different charges for both the 85 and 100 grain. This has usually resulted in getting a group I will accept, just below max load. If I have good data from the powder manufacturer, I will usually load three sets at 0.5 increments, from max to 1.0 grain under, and work back up the ladder toward max load. Since I don't use a chrony, this seems to be a sane enough system to keep me from worrying too much about exceeding pressure limits by too much.

    No doubt, I could push it more, but once I get into the sub-MOA realm, I'm usually wasting my time to keep pushing it, with my equipment and ability. My AR in .223 is the only possible exception, so far. The 20" heavy barrel and NM trigger give it greater possibilities for precision than most of my other rifles. The .243 might be another, but I haven't shot it enough to know for sure, yet. It is a strictly 'stock' rifle, but seems to be a very good one, so far.

    Bisley, going back a while here I was going to answer this post when you first posted it, but forgot. For the most part, we are on the same page with load development here. The one difference is when approaching max. Now how you define that, approaching max can be a suggestive term, but I usually look at book value and when I get within a grain of book max I slow down to .2 grains to even .1 grains per step. The reason is I have one rifle where .3 grains is the difference between a normal good shooting load and an over pressure. In my Speer #9 loading manual, the max load with IMR 4831 powder calls for 57 grains with a 130 grain Spitzer. When I first tried that load, I made the jump from 56.5 to 57 grains in one bound. This caused my bolt to stick and flattened the primer. I shot like 4 rounds of it, like a fool, with the same results each shot. This was my first experience with over pressure and it took me a few rounds to fathom what was going on. In my Speer book, it is recommended that when you get within one grain of max to slow down and go only .2 grains to .1 grains each step up to Max. That's what I do now. When I get within a grain, I go to.2 until I'm within .4 or so of max. Then I go to .1 on up to max. It's a pain and takes longer, but after my experience with my .270 I realize that in some rifles you CAN exceed safe pressure in as few as .3 grains increase of powder.

    And just because a load is listed in a loading manual doesn't mean it's safe in your rifle. That only means it's safe in the test rifle and should be used as a guide line only. Each Rifle is an entity unto itself. Each is different and there is no one size fits all as I so abruptly found out. This is not my only experience with high pressure. I've had others since but they have been where I was just starting to tickle the edge of the envelope and the beginnings of pressure signs gave me caution to back off. Slowing down to .1 or .2 grains at a time keeps me from going too far. However, that first one was the most intense and abrupt because I jumped right into the fire going .5 grain in a single bound. I landed right in the middle of a high pressure excursion. It got my attention.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,051 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    3800 fps MV is not realistic from a .243 shooting 100 grain bullets. You're doing good to push 3000.

    correct, substitute the 3 for a fat fingered 2
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    correct, substitute the 3 for a fat fingered 2

    Still pretty good. I get between 2800 and 2900 with 95 grain NBTs.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
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