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What to do with no carry places?

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  • ADRidgeADRidge Member Posts: 173 Member
    One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the difference between a legal "no carry" sign, and a "no guns" sign. In Texas, anyway, there is a difference. Our legally-binding No Carry sign is referred to as the 30.06 sign, as that's the portion of our code it references. Makes it criminal trespassing to carry at a place where a 30.06 sign is posted. Those signs must be in a certain location, at a certain height, the signs must be certain dimensions, etc. Those must be heeded, period. No gun signs, however, make me smile a little. They hold no weight, and don't prevent me from protecting me and mine.
    In space no one can hear you scream... but if you put a helicopter up there, some jerk would complain about the noise!
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    I think I am going to print up some new signs and hand them out to the businesses that post NO CARRY SIGNS so they can post them next to their existing signs ...

    gunfreezone1.gif
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    samzhere wrote: »
    That's a fair assessment. The only flaw is that your front yard isn't publicly accessible, while a store or business is. They cannot, for example, put up a sign that says "no blacks allowed"....

    Sam, I just wanted to address this point. Please see: http://civilrights.uslegal.com/discrimination-in-places-of-public-accommodation/ . Essentially, if you somehow justified that your business is not a "place of public accommodation", then you can exclude protected classes (gender, race, ethnicity, religion, etc.).

    The main point is protected classes are specified in Federal laws specific to a group of businesses, not all. Usually if the characteristic can't be helped, you can't denied business or services base on it. It's safe to say that guns are not in the protected classes.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    ADRidge wrote: »
    One thing that hasn't been brought up yet is the difference between a legal "no carry" sign, and a "no guns" sign. In Texas, anyway, there is a difference. Our legally-binding No Carry sign is referred to as the 30.06 sign, as that's the portion of our code it references. Makes it criminal trespassing to carry at a place where a 30.06 sign is posted. Those signs must be in a certain location, at a certain height, the signs must be certain dimensions, etc. Those must be heeded, period. No gun signs, however, make me smile a little. They hold no weight, and don't prevent me from protecting me and mine.

    This is an excellent point. I am aware of this, but failed to mention the difference.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • Billy GunBilly Gun Member Posts: 51 Member
    Thanks for all the input. In my understanding the signs here in WI are legal. I will probably honor them and take my business elsewhere. I like the idea of telling them my reasoning. Keeping my wife from going is going to be another matter. And I have eaten at Dennys At 2 in the morning. Not a problem. It was usually just myself and a couple of friends at the time. Most towns around me are pretty quiet places with the occasional idiot bar fight. Except for certain places in Madison and Milwaukee areas.
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    mkk41 wrote: »
    gunfree.jpg


    Yep, that one has it correct!
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    Agreed, the problem is keeping the Wife from shopping at that business!! That's another subject for another day.


    Yeah, but you don't have to let them know that! :angel2:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    mkk41 wrote: »
    gunfree.jpg

    A business with that sign would get my money.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,497 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    Within reason, My right to stay alive trumps your private potty rights, and I will raise you a barn.....and a marker on a private dog kennel.....

    So your rights, supercede the rights of others because you don't like them exersizing them or they inconvience you?
    Sorry, your rights stop where anothers begin.

    If you are carrying and they don't want you there, and have posted a notice that you are not allowed there, then at least in PA, you are commiting a summary offense and can be cited. If you refuse to leave, then it becomes a misdemeanor.

    ....................
    (b) Defiant trespasser.--
    (1) A person commits an offense if, knowing that he is
    not licensed or privileged to do so, he enters or remains in
    any place as to which notice against trespass is given by:
    (i) actual communication to the actor;
    (ii) posting in a manner prescribed by law or
    reasonably likely to come to the attention of intruders;

    (iii) fencing or other enclosure manifestly designed
    to exclude intruders;
    (iv) notices posted in a manner prescribed by law or
    reasonably likely to come to the person's attention at
    each entrance of school grounds that visitors are
    prohibited without authorization from a designated
    school, center or program official; or
    (v) an actual communication to the actor to leave
    school grounds as communicated by a school, center or
    program official, employee or agent or a law enforcement
    officer.
    (2) Except as provided in paragraph (1)(v), an offense
    under this subsection constitutes a misdemeanor of the third
    degree if the offender defies an order to leave personally
    communicated to him by the owner of the premises or other
    authorized person. An offense under paragraph (1)(v)
    constitutes a misdemeanor

    ....................

    If a buisness chooses to post that type of sign, you have every right not to go there.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    My dear friend I was only messing around, that is why I endeavored to be witty, and ended up sounding perhaps s tee, and for that I am truly sorry and do humbly apologize to all concerned, a feeble attempt at humor by My poor self and not the reality in any case.

    I will say plenty of HMs and a good act of contrition for My sins.

    OTOH, when a crazed killer takes out a bunch of people in a gun restricted zone, and no LEO is there to stop the killing, what rights did the killer have that trumped private property rights ?

    What rights did the victims have, last rites if they live long enough ?

    You will find many issues like that cut both ways.

    I for one will never stop law abiding folks from carrying on My private property.

    Edited to add:

    LEO's are exempt from those rules, so current LEO's must be better than non (current) Non-LEO's no ?
    Almost another way of saying only the Police should bear arms in gun restricted areas...
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    I'm glad that I do not suffer such problems anymore.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    No matter, there will be some areas you can't carry.
    Whether or not you go there is another matter.

    As a LEO I had to visit a prison, I was pretty nervous when asked for My sidearm and badge etc.... the pin and metal being the issue, I was reassured, "Don't worry, you will get it all back, you are only visiting after all" still made Me nervous.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,843 Senior Member
    To tell the truth I have stopped worrying about this issue, of course it depends on where you live; but, I need the following items or services---- food, medical services, decent and economical place for Clean to shop, banking , and much more. So, I carry when I can, sometimes we cannot even have a gun in the vehicle.

    It might be nice to have reasonable alternatives; but, I'm not moving to the big population centers, too many people here already.

    As far as more rural, 40-50 miles to the store and other services is too far for our present infirmities.
  • BPsniperBPsniper Banned Posts: 1,961 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    No matter, there will be some areas you can't carry.

    True, but those places usually come with lock boxes and keys I get to keep for the duration. Not the same as leaving it in your car.
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    A new Florida law just went into effect Oct 1st, the ramifications on this issue are unclear. Basically, the new law states that
    only the state can determine gun laws in cases when fed law does not apply. Citiy and County gun laws are Null & Void and
    all sign's disallowing guns in city and state parks ect must be removed. Cities and Counties failing to remove signs will be
    fined $5000 a day until signs are removed. I'm not sure how this effects schools, private business ect, obviously their are
    100's of law suits being filed by local governments and the courts will have to sort this out. At this point State CCW laws
    allow legal gun owners and CCW on State, County and City property as provided by State CCW and general gun restrictions.
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    A new Florida law just went into effect Oct 1st, the ramifications on this issue are unclear. Basically, the new law states that
    only the state can determine gun laws in cases when fed law does not apply. Citiy and County gun laws are Null & Void and
    all sign's disallowing guns in city and state parks ect must be removed. Cities and Counties failing to remove signs will be
    fined $5000 a day until signs are removed. I'm not sure how this effects schools, private business ect, obviously their are
    100's of law suits being filed by local governments and the courts will have to sort this out. At this point State CCW laws
    allow legal gun owners and CCW on State, County and City property as provided by State CCW and general gun restrictions.

    This is with regard to state preemption, that is only the state government can pass gun laws, and doesn't have much to do with signage. In other words, if state law said signs posted based on statute specs are legally binding, then you will still be breaking the law carrying concealed in those businesses with proper "no guns" signs.

    On the off note, I'm happy to see that FL has this, but if FL is anything like PA, you'll see continual violation of preemption by localities. Philly, for example, tries to pass gun laws on an annual basis and never got fined for it. I think local law makers should be punished if the propose laws that knowingly violates preemption.
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • 104RFAST104RFAST Senior Member Posts: 1,281 Senior Member
    In Florida, If a private business displays a no gun sign and you are discovered to be CCW and the establishment ask you to
    leave, you must leave, period,no harm no foul. If you refuse, you can be charged and arrested. Why would you risk your CCP
    just to make a point? Personally, I don't carry all the time, but when I do I just take my business some wear else!! Although,
    a pocket 38 is small enough that I've haven't been discovered so far.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    My question is this: are they going to question Federal Agents ? Non Uniformed LEOs ? how would they know who is carrying and who is exempt from the signs ????
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    104RFAST wrote: »
    In Florida, If a private business displays a no gun sign and you are discovered to be CCW and the establishment ask you to
    leave, you must leave, period,no harm no foul. If you refuse, you can be charged and arrested. Why would you risk your CCP
    just to make a point? Personally, I don't carry all the time, but when I do I just take my business some wear else!! Although,
    a pocket 38 is small enough that I've haven't been discovered so far.

    This is the same for all states regardless of signs and has nothing to do with carrying concealed. It's trespassing. If you act or dress a certain way that a business owner doesn't want you in their place, they can ask you to leave just the same. If you refused, you can be arrested for trespassing. The important distinction is the legal one: whether or not "no gun" sign carries legal weight in your state.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    My question is this: are they going to question Federal Agents ? Non Uniformed LEOs ? how would they know who is carrying and who is exempt from the signs ????

    From what I have seen written in the various gun laws, LEOs are usually exempted from any law restricting their right to carry into virtually anywhere. Open carriers are often asked if they were LEO by business owners with intent to exclude them from the business policy of restricting carrying customers.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    So if you crop your hair Marine Corps style, and wear a business suit, and so forth, who is a going to know ?
    And you are not printing etc........
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    So if you crop your hair Marine Corps style, and wear a business suit, and so forth, who is a going to know ?
    And you are not printing etc........

    I'm not sure what you are asking or advising.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I am not asking or advising anything, but just saying, assuming you do not look like a crazy, why would they single out and roust people without knowing who they are ?
    Or ask if that person is carrying ?
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,843 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I am not asking or advising anything, but just saying, assuming you do not look like a crazy, why would they single out and roust people without knowing who they are ?
    ?
    Well, I don't know, but, I got a LEO in San Diego turn around and drive up and give me the come boy routine while I was in a harbor area park because I had a fresh high and tight. And that was what he stated was his reason. He disappeared real fast once he saw my ID, without even a thank you.
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    DoctorWho wrote: »
    I am not asking or advising anything, but just saying, assuming you do not look like a crazy, why would they single out and roust people without knowing who they are ?
    Or ask if that person is carrying ?

    I understand what you're saying now Doc and I agree that no one can tell. That doesn't change the law, responsibility of the carrier, and the right of the business owner all in combination. Even if I were in suit and tie, cleanly shaved, well-concealed, I wouldn't risk carrying into the post office because it's prohibited by law. I can't really imagine a scenario where I could be made, but things always have a funny way of surfacing when least/never expected.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • Des52Des52 New Member Posts: 23 New Member
    In the Wisconsin CCW bill there are provisions that protect business owners who let people carry on there property. There is also a provision that states that owners that post the signs are taking responsibilty for people on their property.
  • Des52Des52 New Member Posts: 23 New Member
    In the Wisconsin CCW bill there are provisions that protect business owners who let people carry on there property. There is also a provision that states that owners that post the signs are taking responsibilty for people on their property.
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