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Enough from the "Entitled Leaches"!

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  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    You gotta have money to make money...........so how many folks have much to invest these days...you think if MOST had an extra 6% in their NET Pay
    For the record, it is 15% of our gross pay. Half comes directly out of most people's checks and the other half is paid by the employer (and if you somehow think employers are eating that cost, think again-- that is money they aren't paying their employees). 15% of gross is the real number.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    While in theory that sounds logical and I totally agree with you, BUT. What will happen is that people will blow what they get and when the time comes will be standing with their hands out looking for more and our elected officials will say something like" we can not let them starve, or live on the streets" and it will start all over again.
    I understand and agree with you. It happens in the corporate world (how many times have automakers been bailed out, and what about the banks?)

    Problem is, we're not solving the problem by doing this. If folks know that the gov. will come in and help them because they mismanaged their funds (and I'm including corporations because Mitt Romney believes corporations are people) then it allows this sort of behavior. Constantly providing a safety net just subsidizes poor choices at the expense of those who are wiser. I've seen plenty of folks making fun of adult kids who rely on their parents to bail them out. Why should those who are older and have lived a full, supposedly productive life, get an exception?

    Big Chief asks who should determine who's smart enough to manage their own finances. I'd say the individual's success or failure will determine that.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    For the record, it is 15% of our gross pay. Half comes directly out of most people's checks and the other half is paid by the employer (and if you somehow think employers are eating that cost, think again-- that is money they aren't paying their employees). 15% of gross is the real number.

    So if there was no SS deductions, employers would give their contributions to their employees? I'm sure you would being the good boss you are, but most others............I doubt it.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    SS safety is a big net, but not finely woven, fer sure.

    What gets me is politicians scream about doing away with it or changingit after they are the ones whose irresponsible generosity to pork programs, greed and and spending sprees screwed it up in the first place. Trying to pass the buck to those who have been paying into it because it is the law.

    Once again, Joe Schmuck the citizen gets screwed by our elected officials.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    Do you honestly think that I, or any other employer is eating that 7 1/2% out of the goodness of our hearts? That is the cost of hiring a person. So if the government mandates that the employer pays for healthcare or whatever-- we factor that in. People tend to think that paying someone $10/hr is the only expense an employer pays. That is crap! It is more like $15+/hr to pay them that $10. And yes, that money would go to employee compensation as opposed to the government.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »

    Who will decide who is smart enough to manage their money? Is that like voting and a test should be given at the polls like Jim Crow laws?
    The people themselves. If they are eating Purina people chow, then they were not smart enough. Dont follow their example.
    You are getting a "Return" of sorts on your SS taxes, maybe not what you think you should, but it is better than nothing. Most of you younger people are using the assumption you will pay and not get anything when you retire when your time comes. Not true.
    Your "return" is less than if you banked the money in a passbook savings account. As a second benefit, it is not a return on investment, but a higher draw on the income of SS. Which BTW, is NOT guaranteed. It legally does not have to be paid out.
    OK since some of you think you are so savvy with money, refuse your SS because you invested so wisely your whole life and don't need it, give it to charity.
    Give me the money that was taken from me, even without the interest you say is there, and I will be more than happy to refuse it. As to giving it to charity, that is my business, not the feds.


    You younger folks sometimes think you have perfect solutions to life's problems, trust me you do not. If it were as simple as replacing SS with a 401K like investments it would have been done a long long time ago.
    It was. Now it is illegal to replace it since 1983 because the govt found out that people with half a brain could do better, and they wouldnt have a bucket of money to play with.
    Workers making $17,000 a year are expected to receive about 50 percent more per month on our alternative plan than on Social Security - $1,036 instead of $683. [See the Figure.]
    Workers making $26,000 a year will make almost double Social Security's return - $1,500 instead of $853.
    Workers making $51,000 a year will get $3,103 instead of $1,368.
    Workers making $75,000 or more will nearly triple Social Security - $4,540 instead of $1,645.
    Galveston County's survivorship benefits pay four times a worker's annual salary - a minimum of $75,000 to a maximum $215,000 - versus Social Security, which forces widows to wait until age 60 to qualify for benefits, or provides 75 percent of a worker's salary for school-age children.
    - See more at: http://www.ncpa.org/pub/ba514#sthash.zW1j1JuA.dpuf
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    Dont forget the loaded labor rate of each employee. After pay, taxes, and insurance you still have to put him in the field with tools.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,297 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Do you honestly think that I, or any other employer is eating that 7 1/2% out of the goodness of our hearts? That is the cost of hiring a person. So if the government mandates that the employer pays for healthcare or whatever-- we factor that in. People tend to think that paying someone $10/hr is the only expense an employer pays. That is crap! It is more like $15+/hr to pay them that $10. And yes, that money would go to employee compensation as opposed to the government.

    Actually when you factor in all hidden taxes and investment in an employee, take home is only half of the employer's burden to pay for an employee.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    Way less. My loaded labor rate is over 110/hr, I dont make 55 pretax even ot with a differential.

    If you can talk my employer into about 75/hr pretax, I would appreciate it.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    My point is that employers see the whole expense of an employee and it is a cost of doing business. The 7.5% contribution that the employer is making to Social Security is part of it. In other words, that is money that is part of the many expenses of having employees that is NOT going into the employee's pocket.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,297 Senior Member
    Yeah, I'm usually dealing with office chair warmers, not people that actually work for a living. It's a bit less without all the tools, training, certifications, vehicles, etc... That you have
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    I can tell you about early buy outs from the Army. They offered a payout for soldiers at XXX number years (I think around 14-18) to give them a lump sum or monthly pay out fer X number of years in lieu of staying in for 20 and getting a 50% basic pay retirement. Quite a few did that, got the money and guess what it was gone within a year and almost all regretted taking that deal.

    I'm set to get that pitch next year. The 15 year mark is where they offer up a lump sum of money in lieu of a 50% retirement.

    It goes without saying that I know better. I forget what the break even point is, but it ain't that far off - something like 20 years. If you live that long, you quickly start outpacing the lump sum payment by leaps and bounds if you stick with the traditional monthly payment retirement + COLA.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    One thing to remember is that NO employer, neither private or government, will LOSE money by offering you an earlier buyout. Every "great deal" for the person they're trying to entice to retire will benefit the employer. Some of those deals aren't bad, but generally you'll do better by working until you reach a full retirement.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    One thing to remember is that NO employer, neither private or government, will LOSE money by offering you an earlier buyout. Every "great deal" for the person they're trying to entice to retire will benefit the employer. Some of those deals aren't bad, but generally you'll do better by working until you reach a full retirement.

    Exactly, but they KNOW there are guys who see big short-term dollar signs and think they are somehow getting instantly rich and/or live better off. These are the same guys that can't fathom than a seemingly expensive LED light bulb will end up being significantly cheaper than the numerous conventional replacement bulbs they will have to buy while the LED is still going strong.

    One of my friend's took the Air Force's Voluntary Separation Pay early-out program from about a decade back because "it was a lot of money." To him, just shy of a $100K was just too much money to turn down. I tried to pitch it him that it wasn't worth giving up his entire retirement and veteran's status for the rough equivalent of a year's pay in his career path and starting over from scratch in the civilian work force. He didn't listen and took the money. You know how that story goes: after the taxes took a nice chunk of that money, he bought a brand new truck cash and made other unwise investments, and quickly found the bottom of that stash. He has since changed jobs more times than I can count and dealt with a substantially lower standard of living than he had even 10 years ago. In the meantime, he could've been retired by now with a guaranteed income for the rest of his life. Now he will probably be working until he's in the ground.

    Like you said: if they offering you an up-front incentive, it's because they will win in the long run.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    Exactly, but they KNOW there are guys who see big short-term dollar signs and think they are somehow getting instantly rich and/or live better off. These are the same guys that can't fathom than a seemingly expensive LED light bulb will end up being significantly cheaper than the numerous conventional replacement bulbs they will have to buy while the LED is still going strong.

    One of my friend's took the Air Force's Voluntary Separation Pay early-out program from about a decade back because "it was a lot of money." To him, just shy of a $100K was just too much money to turn down. I tried to pitch it him that it wasn't worth giving up his entire retirement and veteran's status for the rough equivalent of a year's pay in his career path and starting over from scratch in the civilian work force. He didn't listen and took the money. You know how that story goes: after the taxes took a nice chunk of that money, he bought a brand new truck cash and made other unwise investments, and quickly found the bottom of that stash. He has since changed jobs more times than I can count and dealt with a substantially lower standard of living than he had even 10 years ago. In the meantime, he could've been retired by now with a guaranteed income for the rest of his life. Now he will probably be working until he's in the ground.

    Like you said: if they offering you an up-front incentive, it's because they will win in the long run.

    Yep, I've seen and heard about the same thing over and over again. I told them them you NEED that retired ID card and a military retirement check deposited in you account for the rest of your lives much more than what will amount to a small chunk of cash to spend now. They can always pursue another career after they get fully retired in a few more years.

    Lot of them said they could put their skills to work for a DOD contractor, guess what, the ones who actually got hired had their knowledge and skills sucked outta them fairly fast or had to stay deployed to get the big bucks and we know how long those jobs last........................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Lot of different idys being bandied about on here and by politicians. Please let me know when a fair and workable plan is figured out, especially one Congress will agree to pass and get the POTUS to sign.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Six-Gun stay for your 20, at least. 5 years will go by fast and get your 50% of base pay or whatever it is these days for 20. Even that has been screwed with back and forth with some formula the bean counters came up with.

    You are 3/4 of the way there, you can do the rest standing on you head as they used to say.

    You, your wife and family will appreciate it. It is worth it. And believe me the grass is not always greener on the other side of the hill.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,452 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    I'm set to get that pitch next year. The 15 year mark is where they offer up a lump sum of money in lieu of a 50% retirement.

    It goes without saying that I know better. I forget what the break even point is, but it ain't that far off - something like 20 years. If you live that long, you quickly start outpacing the lump sum payment by leaps and bounds if you stick with the traditional monthly payment retirement + COLA.
    You also have to run the numbers in estimating you are not going to be a bonehead. For example; your buddy A, HAS a good paying job lined up and a plan. He takes his 70K after tax money and plops it into a IRA and starts working at a job where he will have a 401K available. Normally it takes a year to start the 401 so he will have 4 years invested at the end of 5 years. The 75K has been growing for 5 already so at say 40years old, he could have well over 100K in retirement savings. Can you say that that is the break even point? Yes and no. If A goes that route he may have less as a annuity at that point in time, however his investment is growing, and he has 5 years in the workforce more than B which will translate into a larger pay/year. If B sticks with the 20 and out option, he has a annuity with no guaranteed COLA, so it may not grow much over time. When B goes into the workforce, he will be 6 years behind A in retirement contributions to a 401 or Roth without a lump sum to start. The other thing to think about is what chance of a RIF over the next 5 years?

    Once you know the #, get your butt to a financial planner, not a insurance salesman, a Morgan Stanley, Legg Mason type. Find out your options.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    I'm already on that page. I've been off and running on my personally procured second, and now third retirement savings plans, all going in tandem. After getting through college and Officer Training School, I started putting dough away into a Roth IRA in my mid-20s, presuming that nothing in my military career would be safe, sacred or assured. It's been making grounds over the years, and worth a little over 90K right now. Not a lot by retirement standards, but getting there over time and being that I'm only 38, I still have a lot of working years left.

    I'm capped out on my contribution to the Roth IRA, so I started putting a few percent of my pre-tax income into a traditional government Thrift Savings Plan this past year. The amount in that is tiny right now, just a few thousand, but it's a supplemental retirement option that just got going, so I'm not concerned. I will keep that one going long after I retire from the military.

    Then, of course, I can apply whatever income I make from my post-military service job. With my military retirement coming in at that point, I plan to crank up that traditional TSP contributions with my extra income. The kids will be in school by the end of next year, so the wife will also be starting back up working and contributing to her own retirement plan. She'll have a solid 20+ years to add to that account.

    In the end (God willing), between the two of us, we'll have 4 revenue retirement streams coming in before SS: my military retirement, Roth IRA, traditional TSP and the wife's future retirement. I won't count SS, because I really don't have faith that it will be there by the time we're of age to claim it. They already pushed my age group out to 67 to get full benefits, and it's looking more and more like they will want to push that out even further in what is looking like nothing more than a government Ponzi scheme for my generation. In short: they want me with one foot in the grave before I ever see a penny that I paid into SS.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Wow, I just looked into the military retirement program and that is generous! 50% pay from the day you retire at 20 years + COLA adjustments for life. Not enough on its own for most people, but given that for most it would start in their late 30's or early 40's that's a long time to be collecting a check. I would venture a guess that many will even collect more in retirement pay than they did in actual pay over their lifetime. Not a bad deal!
    Yes it is a good deal, and they deserve every penny if not more. My dad has two jacked up ankles due to bad landings in parachute accidents. I think he earned his generous retirement.
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    It's not a bad deal *if* you stay in long enough to claim it and *if* you aren't KIA in the course of your career. Remember, a lot of kids come in for 4 years, take their GI Bill for college and get out. Others get in disciplinary trouble and get kicked out. Others get involuntarily separated when Congress decides that the military is too big. Others go to war and never come back. For each of those people, and the ones who make it through the gauntlet, money is set aside to pay for the prospective retirement. If they don't make it to retirement, that becomes house money for those who do.

    The other part of this is that military members take less pay for the duration of their careers for the civilian sector. We defer a lot of pay while in for the benefit of being able to claim a retirement earlier in our lives that makes up a larger percentage of our lower overall pay. It's still an excellent deal when you factor in your VA benefits and much cheaper VA healthcare plans once you retire, but it does come at a cost (often measured in years away from your kids).
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Alpha, COLA for military retires is calculated differently than the pay raises active duty get. I have been retired for just about 20 years now from the Army. My pay has gone up, but it isn't as fast paced as some think.

    And now they have different ways to calculate COLA depending on what retirement system you fall under.

    I came under what they call the Final Pay retirement system since I entered in the 70s.

    It still is a very good retirement for sure, but you don't get something for nothing. As they say, Uncle Sam has you by the short hairs your entire service life.

    http://www.military.com/benefits/military-pay/the-military-retirement-system.html
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Wow, I just looked into the military retirement program and that is generous! 50% pay from the day you retire at 20 years + COLA adjustments for life. Not enough on its own for most people, but given that for most it would start in their late 30's or early 40's that's a long time to be collecting a check. I would venture a guess that many will even collect more in retirement pay than they did in actual pay over their lifetime. Not a bad deal!

    A lot of people die young after being in the military after 20+ yrs. Depending on what you do, the stress takes it's toll.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    That military retirement looks good to people too cowardly to put on a uniform and pledge their lives to stand in defense of those who can't, or more likely won't serve. I'd fully support a military retirement system that pays 75% for life, plus totally free medical care for an honorably retired service member AND his/her spouse! Those people have usually sacrificed far more than any kind of monetary compensation can make up for!
    Jerry
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,131 Senior Member
    Wow, I just looked into the military retirement program and that is generous! 50% pay from the day you retire at 20 years + COLA adjustments for life.
    There you go! You are young, got your college degrees and aren't tied down. Go for it. It sounds like a great opportunity for you.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Oh boy..........Lt Fuzz would have some competition from Lt Alpha :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,138 Senior Member
    Wow, I just looked into the military retirement program and that is generous! 50% pay from the day you retire at 20 years + COLA adjustments for life. Not enough on its own for most people, but given that for most it would start in their late 30's or early 40's that's a long time to be collecting a check. I would venture a guess that many will even collect more in retirement pay than they did in actual pay over their lifetime. Not a bad deal!
    Alfa you know all about the DOD and the Military. You were a contractor for who? Did you ever once wear a uniform ? If the reason you never wore a uniform is not because you were medically disqualified after you attempted to join you have no right to say anything about our Military.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,138 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    That military retirement looks good to people too cowardly to put on a uniform and pledge their lives to stand in defense of those who can't, or more likely won't serve. I'd fully support a military retirement system that pays 75% for life, plus totally free medical care for an honorably retired service member AND his/her spouse! Those people have usually sacrificed far more than any kind of monetary compensation can make up for!
    Jerry
    I and every veteran/retiree from our Armed Forces Thank You for your kind words and support Jerry.
    Many Thanks to You and those like you.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 8,152 Senior Member
    BAMAAK wrote: »
    A lot of people die young after being in the military after 20+ yrs. Depending on what you do, the stress takes it's toll.

    Funny you mention that. My neighbor is an enlisted Army reservist and Master Gunnery School grad. He was just diagnosed with non-Hodgkins lymphoma and he's about my age. He's fairly sure it was due to a certaintype of battery that was burned as waste when he was deployed to Afghanistan during one of his two tours. It's a better than average survival rate for that form, but I certainly wouldn't want to be in his shoes.

    His situationmakes think about my hudrazine exposure while flying in the F-16. Every time we tested the emergency power unit that uses it, I think about the radioactivity symbol on the side of the jet and the fact that we had to go on 100% oxygen to operate it safely...you never know.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,521 Senior Member
    Military retirement pay... is it based on 50% of the BASE pay? Not the high pay?

    If it's based on base... that's a real rip.
    Overkill is underrated.
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