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Carhartt jacket stopped some of the bullets.

TugarTugar Senior MemberPosts: 2,340 Senior Member
Surprised this hasn't made the rounds ( no pun intended ) yet. Might have to consider the powerball ammo in the winter here.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/carhartt-jacket-stops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill
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Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,518 Senior Member
    How is it that NYC cops can't seem to shoot someone without hitting an innocent bystander?
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,807 Senior Member
    It is the same principle as the home made backstop my dad made for me, for my BB gun. A piece of heavy cloth (denim, or a heavy towel) draped over a wire, inside a box. The loose hanging cloth 'gives' on impact and folds up around the projectile, dropping it to the bottom of the box. The rounds that actually penetrated in the NY episode probably hit an area where the jacket was against the body, so it could not collapse around the bullet. It's been known to happen, in combat, during winter time, with lighter weapons like the M-1 carbine.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    How is it that NYC cops can't seem to shoot someone without hitting an innocent bystander?

    It comes from holding the gun sideways and shooting until slide lock. Having their eyes closed tight doesn't help any.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,631 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    How is it that NYC cops can't seem to shoot someone without hitting an innocent bystander?

    Are you kidding? They can't even figure out how to put sufficient places for all the people in NYC to PEE. A rifle-armed Carlos Hathcock on his A-game would be hard pressed to not tag the odd bystander, to say nothing of pistol-packing cops who only shoot when required.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Are you kidding? They can't even figure out how to put sufficient places for all the people in NYC to PEE. A rifle-armed Carlos Hathcock on his A-game would be hard pressed to not tag the odd bystander, to say nothing of pistol-packing cops who only shoot when required.

    You have to admit NYPD has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to NOT shooting innocent bystanders. You can't blame it all on population density. Training and tactics account for much.


    Edited to add: Also, population density being what it is, it would seem that requiring a much higher level of proficiency from NYPD officers might be in order. If the likelihood is so much greater of unintended perforation of non combatants, the performance of the shooter should be higher as well. Sayin'
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,631 Senior Member
    35,000-ish cops as an ongoing drain on a training ammo budget, vs. largest city in the world as a tax base to pay for it, vs. city projects elsewhere, vs. expected cost of lawsuits resulting from stray rounds.

    I have no doubt some spineless and/or detached group of bean counters who works in a goldfish bowl at City Hall did that math a long time ago.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    We're fingering NYC and the NYPD but no kudos for Carhartt? :jester:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    We're fingering NYC and the NYPD but no kudos for Carhartt? :jester:



    Good coats, etc....but I'm not going to start using it for body armor, lol!
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    35,000-ish cops as an ongoing drain on a training ammo budget, vs. largest city in the world as a tax base to pay for it, vs. city projects elsewhere, vs. expected cost of lawsuits resulting from stray rounds.

    I have no doubt some spineless and/or detached group of bean counters who works in a goldfish bowl at City Hall did that math a long time ago.




    The New York metro area is the most densely packed population center in the U.S., but there are similarly populated areas that don't seem to have the trouble that Gotham city has, cost/benefit analyses notwithstanding.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,631 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    We're fingering NYC and the NYPD but no kudos for Carhartt? :jester:

    Well. . .while the jacket stopped supposedly 80% of the hits, the guy's 100% dead. "CARHARTT: Except for 20% of the time, it works ALL the time." Not the best place from which to launch an ad campaign.

    Would that we could look at the pile of evidence collected from this one. The Glock/Glocks apparently cycled fine, so it's not likely a manufacturing issue of underpowered rounds - at least not grossly so. We don't know the state of the bullets (opened? unopened? intact?) that failed to penetrate. Gold Dots are a bonded (plated) slug, so jacket separation not likely either. Most duty rounds IME take about three milk jugs of water to stop - not sure how you'd drape heavy canvas in jacket form over a person in such a way as to give that kind of resistance four times. 'Tis a curious thing. . .
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    A case for NATO spec fmj?:yesno:
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,807 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    'Tis a curious thing. . .

    Seems very unlikely it could happen 4 times...once, maybe.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,631 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    A case for NATO spec fmj?:yesno:

    Again, the question would be what kind of shape the non-penetrators were in, but more and more, yeah, I think non-expanders have a lot going for them. Not necessarily round noses, mind you, but FMJ's generally shaped like this:



    Bear in mind there is no perfect bullet that will instantly disintegrate a felon down to his DNA, and still be stopped by a single sheet of wet toilet paper on the exiting side. Design something to keep the penetrationally-paranoid happy, and you'll have complaints about why it didn't stop the guy behind the car door and auto glass. Make a middling/fair shot with a straight-line penetrator, and people will say that a 15-20 second bleed out wasn't fast enough. Have the one bullet that stops the threat penetrate out the back side of the perp, and people will instantly forget about the other five that MISSED and went flying down the street unimpeded. Given that it is a hot kitchen with a lot of risks and variables involved, I tend to think a solid with a wide flat nose is the all-round compromise.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    How is it that NYC cops can't seem to shoot someone without hitting an innocent bystander?

    People in New York are packed in like boot camp, a.k.a. nutz to buttz. The occasional errant round has a high probability of hitting a random person or 'Lookie Lou' getting a look at the action.

    And the random person in this case was a lingerie designer from California.

    http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/carhartt-jacket-stops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/
    Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California.

    If Lauran works for Victoria's Secret I hope her wrist heals up quick. That Victoria's Secret lingerie show is a must watch. Sayin'. :tooth:
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    You have to admit NYPD has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to NOT shooting innocent bystanders. You can't blame it all on population density. Training and tactics account for much.


    Edited to add: Also, population density being what it is, it would seem that requiring a much higher level of proficiency from NYPD officers might be in order. If the likelihood is so much greater of unintended perforation of non combatants, the performance of the shooter should be higher as well. Sayin'

    It will never happen. Ever.

    I fight this uphill battle DAILY and by the MINUTE with my command staff when I gripe about or petition for more training. I don't even want advanced training, just more basic training.

    I know cops have social reputations, but believe it or not cops are mst adept at personal communication skills, i.e. talking to people. Why? We absolutely get the most hands on experience with that. For us, 12 hours a day, 15 days a month. That's a LOT of face time.

    Firearms training/practice? About 120 rounds per year; period. It disgusts me.

    TASER training/practice? 5 hours per year; period.

    No budget for patrol pistol and patrol rifle third party classes so they say. And only "SWAT gets to go". It's utter bull-stuff. Patrol officers are almost 10,000 times more likely to discharge their weapon than a SWAT team member, but they get all the ninja training.

    Why do NYC cops shoot and miss? Same reason EVERY department shoots and misses. Poor-as-**** training initiatives. And people with no mindset for training.

    Makes me nauseated just typing this.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    It will never happen. Ever.

    I fight this uphill battle DAILY and by the MINUTE with my command staff when I gripe about or petition for more training. I don't even want advanced training, just more basic training.

    I know cops have social reputations, but believe it or not cops are mst adept at personal communication skills, i.e. talking to people. Why? We absolutely get the most hands on experience with that. For us, 12 hours a day, 15 days a month. That's a LOT of face time.

    Firearms training/practice? About 120 rounds per year; period. It disgusts me.

    TASER training/practice? 5 hours per year; period.

    No budget for patrol pistol and patrol rifle third party classes so they say. And only "SWAT gets to go". It's utter bull-stuff. Patrol officers are almost 10,000 times more likely to discharge their weapon than a SWAT team member, but they get all the ninja training.

    Why do NYC cops shoot and miss? Same reason EVERY department shoots and misses. Poor-as-**** training initiatives. And people with no mindset for training.

    Makes me nauseated just typing this.

    Jason, serious question, no cop bashing, or hating going on. Why don't more officers do more independent training? I have no budgetary support to pay for ammo, training, or range time. It is just a desire to be better prepared if the worst happens. How is it there is no similar mindset amongst LEOs? It would seem to me, if you are putting yourself in harms way, you would want to be as competent as possible with your firearms.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Jason, serious question, no cop bashing, or hating going on. Why don't more officers do more independent training? I have no budgetary support to pay for ammo, training, or range time. It is just a desire to be better prepared if the worst happens. How is it there is no similar mindset amongst LEOs? It would seem to me, if you are putting yourself in harms way, you would want to be as competent as possible with your firearms.

    I'm curious about this also. Most of the LEO's that I've known, I met at IPSC matches and they just happened to be gun enthusiasts. They claimed that most of the people that they worked with didn't have much interest in firearms and looked at their sidearms as a tool for their job. I would think that even with budget constraints aside, most LEO's would have access to a range facility and they would just have to buy their own ammo.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,518 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    People in New York are packed in like boot camp, a.k.a. nutz to buttz. The occasional errant round has a high probability of hitting a random person or 'Lookie Lou' getting a look at the action.:

    There's nothing "occasional" about it...seems like every time there is a high profile PD shooting in NYC bystanders are getting shot...couple of years back IIRC there was a nut with a knife who killed (or was goingto kill) his boss and the police gunfire put five people in the hospital...another was involved an EDP...the only people hit were bystanders, the Sgt arrived on sceen and tased they guy...Honestly, I would love to know how much NYC pays out annually to people inadvertently shot by cops....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    There's nothing "occasional" about it...seems like every time there is a high profile PD shooting in NYC bystanders are getting shot...couple of years back IIRC there was a nut with a knife who killed (or was goingto kill) his boss and the police gunfire put five people in the hospital...another was involved an EDP...the only people hit were bystanders, the Sgt arrived on sceen and tased they guy...Honestly, I would love to know how much NYC pays out annually to people inadvertently shot by cops....

    :nono: I've said it before, and I'll say it AGAIN. WE NEED A SARCASM FONT! Sayin'. :tooth:

    As to the amount NYC pays out for those 'collateral damage' shootings, it's most likely in the millions, and probably a budgetary line item. And it's hard to shoot accurately with a 30# 'lawyer trigger' on a pistol. Sayin' again.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,289 Senior Member
    Jason, serious question, no cop bashing, or hating going on. Why don't more officers do more independent training? I have no budgetary support to pay for ammo, training, or range time. It is just a desire to be better prepared if the worst happens. How is it there is no similar mindset amongst LEOs? It would seem to me, if you are putting yourself in harms way, you would want to be as competent as possible with your firearms.

    My local PD shoots regularly with the local sherriff deputies and state troopers in the area, kind of a social thing for them but they get some trigger time together.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Jason, serious question, no cop bashing, or hating going on. Why don't more officers do more independent training? I have no budgetary support to pay for ammo, training, or range time. It is just a desire to be better prepared if the worst happens. How is it there is no similar mindset amongst LEOs? It would seem to me, if you are putting yourself in harms way, you would want to be as competent as possible with your firearms.

    My second to last sentence...

    No mindset for training. It's a trickle-down effect. If the top is gung-ho about reining that philosophy and motivation trickles down to the masses. Some officers are independently motivated to train and practice, but many are not.

    And training of the nature needed to inoculate a person to open environmental stressors in a gun fight is ridiculously expensive.

    Honestly, look at the military. 9+ weeks of basic, combat schools, advanced training, then in country under constant vigilance for palpable danger, prolonged firefights, etc.

    Cops....hours upon hours of nada. Yea there's a lot of hurry up and wait in the military, but they get a lot more training.

    Cops have lives, mortgages, kids, divorces, bankruptcy, etc etc. Training, true training, is beyond the financial scope of a lot of people.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    My local PD shoots regularly with the local sherriff deputies and state troopers in the area, kind of a social thing for them but they get some trigger time together.

    Mostly static position gunfire I'm sure. Also known as recreational shooting.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Thinking about this I have to preface all of my gripes with the fact my "evidence" is anecdotal. I've met other departments that are spot on and bang up when it comes to training/practice. We're just not one of them.

    Naurally, I've met others as bad or worse than my department. It cuts both ways.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 13,289 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Mostly static position gunfire I'm sure. Also known as recreational shooting.

    Probably a little shooting from and over vehicles as well as positioning themselves when assisting each other, drawing and shooting, walking a can around a sand pit, reloads, etc.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Several years ago a fairly high-ranking Nashville PD officer used to work as a security officer at the night school where I taught. He was one of the "training officers" for a pretty large section of the force. It was about the time Nashville traded in their S&W model 10 revolvers and equipped the force with Glocks, and I asked him why they thought they needed a high-capacity 9MM instead of a revolver. His answer sort of shocked me- - - - -

    "Well, a guy can throw away a few shots while he's diving for cover without having to reload!"

    This comment was coming from a Captain with 20-something years on the job who's in charge of training rookies- - - - -he didn't appreciate it when I asked him what would happen if one of those throwaway shots killed an innocent bystander!
    :roll:
    Jerry
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,647 Senior Member
    Just a thought, but how many CCW holders bother to go to the range after they get certified? Not talking numbers, but percentage.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Just a thought, but how many CCW holders bother to go to the range after they get certified? Not talking numbers, but percentage.

    Few. And those that do just stand still and shoot paper. Same issues.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,647 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Few. And those that do just stand still and shoot paper. Same issues.
    I know that for some, getting to a range where you can actually draw, shoot, and move can be problematic. Not sure about LEOs.


    Edited to add: my point is, we might talk about how LEOs don't have proper training, but that can also be true of those with a CCW.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    I know that for some, getting to a range where you can actually draw, shoot, and move can be problematic. Not sure about LEOs.


    Edited to add: my point is, we might talk about how LEOs don't have proper training, but that can also be true of those with a CCW.

    Agreed. Most say no.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    Just a thought, but how many CCW holders bother to go to the range after they get certified? Not talking numbers, but percentage.
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    Few. And those that do just stand still and shoot paper. Same issues.




    True enough. I didn't mean to bash, it's a tough job. It just seems...'wrong' to a guy like me.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
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