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• Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,504 Senior Member

  May 2016 #2

  I believe that has always been SOP for Israeli forces

  Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

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• breamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,612 Senior Member

  May 2016 #3

  Diver43 wrote: »

  I believe that has always been SOP for Israeli forces

  Yep. Comes from when they had multiple sidearms issued. Easier to teach everyone to rack the slide than to manipulate a safety/decocker that may or may not be there.

  Overkill is underrated.

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• Jay Senior Member Posts: 3,968 Senior Member

  May 2016 #4

  We had a "higher up" a few years ago who wanted our guys to carry like this and wanted me to start training it. I have no idea what his background was, other than military, which is what he used as his reasoning for wanting this done. Maybe he was exposed to this type of tactic at some time and thought it was the best way to go. I don't know. I politely declined and told him he could find another person to teach that if he wanted that implemented. I never heard anything about it again.

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• Teach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member

  May 2016 #5

  Sounds more like "condition dead" to me. Why add a step to those that are essential to getting into action? A C&L 1911, or any of the double action first round autos would be a lot quicker with a round up the pipe. Revolvers- - - -"the original point and click interface!"
  Jerry

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• Eli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member

  May 2016 #6

  This is ubiquitous to the IDF. As a matter of fact, the unofficial name for condition 3 is "Israeli carry".

  https://www.instagram.com/eli.farmer/

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• Bigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,567 Senior Member

  May 2016 #7

  My understanding - and I may just be regurgitating urban legend on this - was that it stemmed at least in part from a lot of early generation P-35 Hi Powers. Somebody decided it was easier to run the slide vs. find the tiny safety.
  
  But yeah, Bream's post #3 makes a lot of sense - if you're starting up your military with every WWI and WWII leftover you can get your hands on, you need a training doctrine that transfers across as many different platforms as possible. When you've got P35's and 1911's with safeties that disengage downward, various Walthers that disengage upward, Tokarevs that have no safety at all, SAO and DA/SA platforms, AAAAAAAND you have to teach a bunch of recent Holocaust survivors whose only prior firearm experience was getting shot at, the K.I.S.S. Principle would tend to take over pretty fast.

  WWJMBD?
  
  "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee

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• Gene L Senior Member Posts: 12,143 Senior Member

  May 2016 #8

  I don't know if the Israeli cops do it or not. When I was in the army, long ago, that was the way we carried 1911s. Though being by the time you needed a pistol, you had enough warning to be able to work the slide. Back then, the 1911 was looked upon like a snake; viewed with suspicion by just about everyone and dangerous. We didn't train with them very much. They were prone to ADs. People got shot with 1911s who were not intended to be shot. They were inaccurate (for the average grunt) and almost never carried as they were heavy and for the weight of a 1911, you could carry another 150 rounds of 5.56. Some medics carried them; mine who had joined as a C.O. carried an M 16.
  
  Times have changed a lot since back then, of course. The 1911 has become mainstream, and the worn out 1911s we had have been replaced with Berettas, which are about worn out, if the rumors have any truth to them.

  Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  

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• Red Horse Member Posts: 96 Member

  May 2016 #9

  Need to keep in perspective that we are talking about soldiers/military units. Everything boils down to training and muscle memory. The antecdote that I heard had to do with battlefield pickups. Basically, if a soldier is required to "salvage" a weapon from the battlefield then IDF training wants them to immediately and automatically cycle the weapon and get it in action.
  
  19 year old soldiers are still 19 years old regardless of the uniform. They will only reliably do those things that their sergeants compel them to do in training. Doing the same thing every time is fairly good reinforcement.

  zu Gleich
  
  "Better is the enemy of Good"

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• gator Senior Member Posts: 1,746 Senior Member

  May 2016 #10

  When I was corporal of the guard we carried empty chamber. That was the rule and you dare not break it.
  
  Sent from my SM-T530NU using Tapatalk

  USMC 80-84
  -96 lbs

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