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Tugar
Senior MemberPosts: 2,449 Senior Member
Carhartt jacket stopped some of the bullets.
Tugar
Senior MemberPosts: 2,449 Senior Member
Surprised this hasn't made the rounds ( no pun intended ) yet. Might have to consider the powerball ammo in the winter here.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/carhartt-jacket-stops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/carhartt-jacket-stops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/
Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
Winston Churchill
Winston Churchill
Replies
It comes from holding the gun sideways and shooting until slide lock. Having their eyes closed tight doesn't help any.
George Carlin
Are you kidding? They can't even figure out how to put sufficient places for all the people in NYC to PEE. A rifle-armed Carlos Hathcock on his A-game would be hard pressed to not tag the odd bystander, to say nothing of pistol-packing cops who only shoot when required.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
You have to admit NYPD has a less than stellar reputation when it comes to NOT shooting innocent bystanders. You can't blame it all on population density. Training and tactics account for much.
Edited to add: Also, population density being what it is, it would seem that requiring a much higher level of proficiency from NYPD officers might be in order. If the likelihood is so much greater of unintended perforation of non combatants, the performance of the shooter should be higher as well. Sayin'
George Carlin
I have no doubt some spineless and/or detached group of bean counters who works in a goldfish bowl at City Hall did that math a long time ago.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Good coats, etc....but I'm not going to start using it for body armor, lol!
George Carlin
The New York metro area is the most densely packed population center in the U.S., but there are similarly populated areas that don't seem to have the trouble that Gotham city has, cost/benefit analyses notwithstanding.
George Carlin
Well. . .while the jacket stopped supposedly 80% of the hits, the guy's 100% dead. "CARHARTT: Except for 20% of the time, it works ALL the time." Not the best place from which to launch an ad campaign.
Would that we could look at the pile of evidence collected from this one. The Glock/Glocks apparently cycled fine, so it's not likely a manufacturing issue of underpowered rounds - at least not grossly so. We don't know the state of the bullets (opened? unopened? intact?) that failed to penetrate. Gold Dots are a bonded (plated) slug, so jacket separation not likely either. Most duty rounds IME take about three milk jugs of water to stop - not sure how you'd drape heavy canvas in jacket form over a person in such a way as to give that kind of resistance four times. 'Tis a curious thing. . .
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
Seems very unlikely it could happen 4 times...once, maybe.
Again, the question would be what kind of shape the non-penetrators were in, but more and more, yeah, I think non-expanders have a lot going for them. Not necessarily round noses, mind you, but FMJ's generally shaped like this:
Bear in mind there is no perfect bullet that will instantly disintegrate a felon down to his DNA, and still be stopped by a single sheet of wet toilet paper on the exiting side. Design something to keep the penetrationally-paranoid happy, and you'll have complaints about why it didn't stop the guy behind the car door and auto glass. Make a middling/fair shot with a straight-line penetrator, and people will say that a 15-20 second bleed out wasn't fast enough. Have the one bullet that stops the threat penetrate out the back side of the perp, and people will instantly forget about the other five that MISSED and went flying down the street unimpeded. Given that it is a hot kitchen with a lot of risks and variables involved, I tend to think a solid with a wide flat nose is the all-round compromise.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
People in New York are packed in like boot camp, a.k.a. nutz to buttz. The occasional errant round has a high probability of hitting a random person or 'Lookie Lou' getting a look at the action.
And the random person in this case was a lingerie designer from California.
http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/robert-farago/carhartt-jacket-stops-nypd-speer-gold-dot-p-9mm-hollow-points/
Another shot grazed the wrist of bystander Lauran Code, a 46-year-old lingerie designer from California.
If Lauran works for Victoria's Secret I hope her wrist heals up quick. That Victoria's Secret lingerie show is a must watch. Sayin'. :tooth:
― Douglas Adams
It will never happen. Ever.
I fight this uphill battle DAILY and by the MINUTE with my command staff when I gripe about or petition for more training. I don't even want advanced training, just more basic training.
I know cops have social reputations, but believe it or not cops are mst adept at personal communication skills, i.e. talking to people. Why? We absolutely get the most hands on experience with that. For us, 12 hours a day, 15 days a month. That's a LOT of face time.
Firearms training/practice? About 120 rounds per year; period. It disgusts me.
TASER training/practice? 5 hours per year; period.
No budget for patrol pistol and patrol rifle third party classes so they say. And only "SWAT gets to go". It's utter bull-stuff. Patrol officers are almost 10,000 times more likely to discharge their weapon than a SWAT team member, but they get all the ninja training.
Why do NYC cops shoot and miss? Same reason EVERY department shoots and misses. Poor-as-**** training initiatives. And people with no mindset for training.
Makes me nauseated just typing this.
Jason, serious question, no cop bashing, or hating going on. Why don't more officers do more independent training? I have no budgetary support to pay for ammo, training, or range time. It is just a desire to be better prepared if the worst happens. How is it there is no similar mindset amongst LEOs? It would seem to me, if you are putting yourself in harms way, you would want to be as competent as possible with your firearms.
I'm curious about this also. Most of the LEO's that I've known, I met at IPSC matches and they just happened to be gun enthusiasts. They claimed that most of the people that they worked with didn't have much interest in firearms and looked at their sidearms as a tool for their job. I would think that even with budget constraints aside, most LEO's would have access to a range facility and they would just have to buy their own ammo.
There's nothing "occasional" about it...seems like every time there is a high profile PD shooting in NYC bystanders are getting shot...couple of years back IIRC there was a nut with a knife who killed (or was goingto kill) his boss and the police gunfire put five people in the hospital...another was involved an EDP...the only people hit were bystanders, the Sgt arrived on sceen and tased they guy...Honestly, I would love to know how much NYC pays out annually to people inadvertently shot by cops....
:nono: I've said it before, and I'll say it AGAIN. WE NEED A SARCASM FONT! Sayin'. :tooth:
As to the amount NYC pays out for those 'collateral damage' shootings, it's most likely in the millions, and probably a budgetary line item. And it's hard to shoot accurately with a 30# 'lawyer trigger' on a pistol. Sayin' again.
― Douglas Adams
My local PD shoots regularly with the local sherriff deputies and state troopers in the area, kind of a social thing for them but they get some trigger time together.
My second to last sentence...
No mindset for training. It's a trickle-down effect. If the top is gung-ho about reining that philosophy and motivation trickles down to the masses. Some officers are independently motivated to train and practice, but many are not.
And training of the nature needed to inoculate a person to open environmental stressors in a gun fight is ridiculously expensive.
Honestly, look at the military. 9+ weeks of basic, combat schools, advanced training, then in country under constant vigilance for palpable danger, prolonged firefights, etc.
Cops....hours upon hours of nada. Yea there's a lot of hurry up and wait in the military, but they get a lot more training.
Cops have lives, mortgages, kids, divorces, bankruptcy, etc etc. Training, true training, is beyond the financial scope of a lot of people.
Mostly static position gunfire I'm sure. Also known as recreational shooting.
Naurally, I've met others as bad or worse than my department. It cuts both ways.
Probably a little shooting from and over vehicles as well as positioning themselves when assisting each other, drawing and shooting, walking a can around a sand pit, reloads, etc.
"Well, a guy can throw away a few shots while he's diving for cover without having to reload!"
This comment was coming from a Captain with 20-something years on the job who's in charge of training rookies- - - - -he didn't appreciate it when I asked him what would happen if one of those throwaway shots killed an innocent bystander!
:roll:
Jerry
Few. And those that do just stand still and shoot paper. Same issues.
Edited to add: my point is, we might talk about how LEOs don't have proper training, but that can also be true of those with a CCW.
Agreed. Most say no.
True enough. I didn't mean to bash, it's a tough job. It just seems...'wrong' to a guy like me.
George Carlin