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Please settle an argument about safety

gunwalkergunwalker MemberPosts: 479 Member
My carry gun is a 1911 full size. I choose it because it is the gun that I shoot best. The problem is that I have not found a holster that works well for me so I prefer to carry it inside my belt on my right hip. It is very comfortable that way. I also prefer condition one. Two relatives are concerned that I have an exposed trigger and feel that is dangerous. I do not see any way that a 1911 can discharge with an accidental trigger pull. What say Ye?
We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.

Replies

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,451 Senior Member
    It would take failure of the frame safety, an accidental trigger pull and activation of the grip safety.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    Gene L is right, in fact, all three of those events would have to happen simultaneously to cause the weapon to fire, and so what? Never mind the facts, my mind is made up.

    The holster I have for my 1911 clone completely covers the trigger guard, and also has a retaining strap that passes between the frame and the cocked hammer. Am I paranoid about Condition One? You betcha. Stop making excuses about the darned holster 'working well for you' and just buy one anyway. get used to it, get over it, and carry safely.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,731 Senior Member
    I used to have a holster that would wipe the thumb safety of my 1911 off....it was disconcerting but still not unsafe....had to amputate some leather to correct the problem.
    I always open carry at the range and have had a lot of people say "Did you know your pistol is cocked?" For a long time I used it as a teaching moment to inform them how a 1911 works....now I'm just as likely to say "Yep" and go about my business....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,448 Senior Member
    You could try a Minimalist holster.......

    P1340365-900x601.jpgP1340358-900x601.jpg
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • gunwalkergunwalker Member Posts: 479 Member
    Thanks all, and thanks to JBP for the photos. That minimalist looks like it is worth a try.
    We do not view the world as it is, but as we perceive it to be.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    It's safe.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    You might look at a simple belt slide holster. So many have moved to all manner of elaborate holsters that I rarely see or hear about anyone using a belt slide anymore. I carried a full sized 1911 in one for years and even used one in IPSC matches in limited class.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,626 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    It would take failure of the frame safety, an accidental trigger pull and activation of the grip safety.


    :win: The 1911 was intended to be carried 'cocked and locked'. That is where the phrase comes from, for cryin' out loud! :silly: Hell, even horselips is convinced this is how things should be!:jester:
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    gunwalker wrote: »
    My carry gun is a 1911 full size. I choose it because it is the gun that I shoot best. The problem is that I have not found a holster that works well for me so I prefer to carry it inside my belt on my right hip. It is very comfortable that way. I also prefer condition one. Two relatives are concerned that I have an exposed trigger and feel that is dangerous. I do not see any way that a 1911 can discharge with an accidental trigger pull. What say Ye?

    I say I agree. I don't see how either, but that's the famous last words o a soon to be dead man. I say don't take chances, just be careful.

    But besides that, I do think the 1911 is one of the most intrinsically safe firearms ever made. There's a lot to do to make it go bang, too many things for a normal accidental discharge to happen, yet it can be made to go bang very fast when needed.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,451 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    :win: The 1911 was intended to be carried 'cocked and locked'. That is where the phrase comes from, for cryin' out loud! :silly: Hell, even horselips is convinced this is how things should be!:jester:

    Actually, the 1911 was intended to be carried in Condition 3. Condition 1 is a fairly recent thing, maybe 40 years or so. However, they are safe in Condition 1 if the pistol isn't worn out.

    My personal choice is to have the trigger covered, but that's just me...I used to carry a 1911 in a Mexican carry, which is very unadvisable (I guess). But I was younger and dumber back then.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    I believe the most important thing you can do with any firearm is know it. Learn it. Learn what makes it tick. Learn all its peculiarities and learn what's inside. Learn what makes it not only go bang but how to make it safe. That's the key to making it safe. But then you gotta do those things to keep it safe and also learn how to get it into firing mode in a hurry. That's with any gun, not just a 1911. That pertains to your model 1100 or your Berretta shot gun or your model 70 Winchester or your 336 Marlin. It doesn't make any difference. Know your firearm and what makes it tick.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior Member Posts: 714 Senior Member
    I tend to be a little paranoid with that stuff. I went with a thumb break that goes in between the hammer and slide. I know it is fine to carry it cocked and locked but I personally liked the extra layer of protection. I found that the thumb break to safety transition was pretty natural so I never felt like it was slower with a 1911, you're already using that thumb any way and one extra flip didn't bother me.
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,573 Senior Member
    I carry mine both IWB and OWB; I got no worries either way, and no extra retention devices.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I would worry not about it just "going off".
    I would however, worry about it slipping out of your belt and falling on the floor.

    Although that never happened to me, I think it is absolutely possible as well as the biggest potentail problem with such carry.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    I have carried multiple different guns in multiple different holsters, NONE of which had anything but a friction fit (ie. Snug fitting leather), and have never had one even begin to back out, much less fall out despite the many activities I have done while carrying.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,880 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    Actually, the 1911 was intended to be carried in Condition 3. Condition 1 is a fairly recent thing, maybe 40 years or so. However, they are safe in Condition 1 if the pistol isn't worn out.

    True on Condition 1, but there's a fair argument to be made that the pistol was ORIGINALLY designed to be carried Condition 2 - loaded chamber & hammer down - most probably on half-cock, but fully lowered wouldn't be a problem due to the inertial safety feature of a spring-rebounding firing pin. Consider the following:

    1. The original 1911 had a tiny little extension on the grip safety, making it easier to reach the thumb around back to retract the hammer. The hammer itself had a big checkered pad giving a lot of traction to that thumb.

    2. Consider what the guys in the Army conducting the trials were used to; 1873 Colt Peacemakers carried hammer down.

    3. Consider what John Browning had previously designed over the previous 25 years and what the shooting public was used to: The Winchester 1885, 86, 90/1906, 92,93/97, 94, & 95 - ALL designed to be toted around with a loaded chamber and the hammer on half-cock.

    The primary purpose of the thumb safety was for a cavalryman to lock his pistol into an unfireable mode while he got both hands back on the reins to regain control of a squirrely horse. Looking again at the older Winchesters with otherwise similar trigger systems, an actual safety and how to use it were both pretty new thinking.

    What we've since learned is that Condition 1 is a better way to carry a pistol in a non-military setting, and that getting into Condition 2 (a.) can be hairy for the lowest common denominator to achieve, and (b.) isn't all that compatible with "modern" 1911's that were built with high-rise beavertails and ring hammers. We've also learned that the 1911 and other pistols are a great deal smarter than a lot of the folks trying to operate them. Condition 2 simply turned out to be a bad idea for people with a less-than-full understanding of the gun, or people who's attention wasn't fully riveted to the loading process.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,451 Senior Member
    "2. Consider what the guys in the Army conducting the trials were used to; 1873 Colt Peacemakers carried hammer down."

    Hammer down on an empty cylinder.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,731 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    True on Condition 1, but there's a fair argument to be made that the pistol was ORIGINALLY designed to be carried Condition 2 - loaded chamber & hammer down - most probably on half-cock, but fully lowered wouldn't be a problem due to the inertial safety feature of a spring-rebounding firing pin. Consider the following:

    1. The original 1911 had a tiny little extension on the grip safety, making it easier to reach the thumb around back to retract the hammer. The hammer itself had a big checkered pad giving a lot of traction to that thumb.

    2. Consider what the guys in the Army conducting the trials were used to; 1873 Colt Peacemakers carried hammer down.

    3. Consider what John Browning had previously designed over the previous 25 years and what the shooting public was used to: The Winchester 1885, 86, 90/1906, 92,93/97, 94, & 95 - ALL designed to be toted around with a loaded chamber and the hammer on half-cock.

    The primary purpose of the thumb safety was for a cavalryman to lock his pistol into an unfireable mode while he got both hands back on the reins to regain control of a squirrely horse. Looking again at the older Winchesters with otherwise similar trigger systems, an actual safety and how to use it were both pretty new thinking.

    What we've since learned is that Condition 1 is a better way to carry a pistol in a non-military setting, and that getting into Condition 2 (a.) can be hairy for the lowest common denominator to achieve, and (b.) isn't all that compatible with "modern" 1911's that were built with high-rise beavertails and ring hammers. We've also learned that the 1911 and other pistols are a great deal smarter than a lot of the folks trying to operate them. Condition 2 simply turned out to be a bad idea for people with a less-than-full understanding of the gun, or people who's attention wasn't fully riveted to the loading process.

    Brilliant piece of writing....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • KSU FirefighterKSU Firefighter Senior Member Posts: 3,249 Senior Member
    I carry my 1911 in condition 1 as well, get used to taking crap about it from a world populated with people who are used to D/A, S/A pistols.
    The fire service needs a "culture of extinguishment not safety" Ray McCormack FDNY
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