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Hey LEOs I gotta question.

tubabucknuttubabucknut BannedPosts: 3,520 Senior Member
I have recently done my duty, and enables a couple of buddies into building some AR pistols. One happens to be a sheriffs deputy. We were speaking recently, and he told me about showing it to one of his fellow deputies. The deputy swore up and down it was a SBR. Even after my buddy showed him several ATF letters on the issue, and regs, the deputy still insisted on calling it an SBR. He said he would arrest anyone he found with one, and let the magistrate sort it out. My buddy has served with two other local departments in addition to his current position. He said they have not had formal training on the issue. He of course is in the know, but as you can see, maybe not all of the people he works with are.

My question is, have you had formal training through your departments, or does your knowledge come through independent study? Clearly if you are here you know, but do your fellow officers? This is concerning to me, because these are not podunk outfits. Charlotte is a major metropolitan area, with a combined population of over 3.5 million people. If the training is lacking here how is it lacking somewhere else? What happens when you get the guy that doesn't know, and maybe the magistrate is unclear as well. That looks to be an expensive case of confusion for the gun owner, who did nothing wrong to begin with.

Replies

  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    So, did the stubborn JBT arrest your friend, or did he give him a pass because he's a fellow LEO? The guy sounds like a hypocrite, albeit an ignorant, dangerous one!
    Jerry
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    No, my buddy was not arrested.
  • NCFUBARNCFUBAR Senior Member Posts: 4,324 Senior Member
    If he is with Mecklenburg SD remember they are not that big on field work ... they handle the court and jail mostly and the Char-Meck and smalltown PDs handle the crime. It wouldn't surprise me if some are lacking in certain areas like that. This is the county where it takes over 30 days to get a Pistol Purchase Permit ... NOT a Permit to carry just a permit to buy a handgun.
    “The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
    - George Orwell
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Not a Meck SD. He is from an adjacent county. He was also with two depts. within the county. He was patrol with all three departments.
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,668 Senior Member
    That was the prevailing thought process when I was on the street. "Arrest and let the court figure it out" if it was an area that that officer didn't want to deal with. The AR/AK pistol stuff wasn't that big yet but there was a guy arrested for an "illegal gun" that had an XP 100 and Ruger charger in his truck. She thought they were SBR's and would not, repeat not listen to reason, even from fellow officers and the command staff on that one. She let it run to the DA and the Dpt. got sued for attorney fees.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    The AR pistol 'loophole' does kind of defy logic, in my opinion. If a LEO sees someone shooting it and using a 'cheek rest' to stabilize it, he could easily misconstrue that to be a shoulder fired pistol. I have even heard that some ATF agents say it is a SBR, if the buffer tube is placed against the shoulder.

    Of course, the states are not required to arrest violators of federal law, and most are selective about which ones they do enforce...so they have a loophole of their own, if they want to ignore it.
  • roadkingroadking Senior Member Posts: 3,056 Senior Member
    Out of curiosity (sorry for the hi-jack), where would a Mauser Broom handle with the holster/stock fall within the SBR guidelines?

    Thanks.
    Support your local Scouts!
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,357 Senior Member
    So, even though he has been informed of the law, he wants to mis-enforce it? Isn't that illegal? Abuse of authority, or something like that?
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Elk creekElk creek Senior Member Posts: 6,668 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    So, even though he has been informed of the law, he wants to mis-enforce it? Isn't that illegal? Abuse of authority, or something like that?
    Yup.
    Aim higher, or get a bigger gun.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,466 Senior Member
    Elk creek wrote: »
    That was the prevailing thought process when I was on the street. "Arrest and let the court figure it out" if it was an area that that officer didn't want to deal with. The AR/AK pistol stuff wasn't that big yet but there was a guy arrested for an "illegal gun" that had an XP 100 and Ruger charger in his truck. She thought they were SBR's and would not, repeat not listen to reason, even from fellow officers and the command staff on that one. She let it run to the DA and the Dpt. got sued for attorney fees.

    And that's the flip side, which can result in a mindset of "This thing only MIGHT be illegal, the laws are really convoluted on the matter, this guy's quite possibly knows them better than I do, he's not doing anything nefarious, isn't covered in gang & prison tattoos, doesn't have a kilo of coke or suitcase of cash in the trunk next to this gun, and isn't quaking in his boots at the sight of me. Maybe we should go looking for ACTUAL criminals instead."

    In California, you've got laws that are EVEN MORE convoluted - to the point where you can read every bit of penal code on certain matters and still find holes to argue in. You've got the rabidly liberal legislators living in their own little world on one side, a gun industry that's HAD to look for and exploit loopholes in order to survive on the other, GENERALLY conservative cops who for the most part are just looking to stop real crime (but you never really know until they pull you over), and localized attitudes on the matter. Which is the big problem with banning by measurement or feature - even when the law is clear (and on guns it very often isn't), the thoughts on the ground for implementing it are all over the map.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    I have recently done my duty, and enables a couple of buddies into building some AR pistols. One happens to be a sheriffs deputy. We were speaking recently, and he told me about showing it to one of his fellow deputies. The deputy swore up and down it was a SBR. Even after my buddy showed him several ATF letters on the issue, and regs, the deputy still insisted on calling it an SBR. He said he would arrest anyone he found with one, and let the magistrate sort it out. My buddy has served with two other local departments in addition to his current position. He said they have not had formal training on the issue. He of course is in the know, but as you can see, maybe not all of the people he works with are.

    My question is, have you had formal training through your departments, or does your knowledge come through independent study? Clearly if you are here you know, but do your fellow officers? This is concerning to me, because these are not podunk outfits. Charlotte is a major metropolitan area, with a combined population of over 3.5 million people. If the training is lacking here how is it lacking somewhere else? What happens when you get the guy that doesn't know, and maybe the magistrate is unclear as well. That looks to be an expensive case of confusion for the gun owner, who did nothing wrong to begin with.

    Formal training, no. I've given a couple of mini-seminars at my department on the matter. Educated a lot of folks who didn't know better, mostly because they just aren't gun people and never self-educated.

    Your friend's friend sounds like a flipping idiot and needs to be relugated to courthouse guard duty.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Not a Meck SD. He is from an adjacent county. He was also with two depts. within the county. He was patrol with all three departments.

    That's called an un-promote-able fool. The slang for a cops that changes departments frequently is a "re-tread".
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    I'm not likely to ever own such a piece, but some of this thread reminds me of the saying, ignorance of the law is no excuse.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,989 Senior Member
    roadking wrote: »
    Out of curiosity (sorry for the hi-jack), where would a Mauser Broom handle with the holster/stock fall within the SBR guidelines?

    Thanks.

    A Broomhandle with the stock is just a pistol since the stock is organic to the pistol, (milled and designed for the stock) and not added on. I have one, in fact.

    Cops generally do not study gun laws, especially arcane ones like SBRs and such. Look in any lawyer's office and you'll see bookshelves of laws that LEOs do not know and cannot know. Likely, the magistrate would have to research the law before handing down a decision on an arrest. An arrest "in good faith" would probably be tolerated but not proceeded with if it's for a act that's determined to not be illegal. However, say if a LEO was instructed by an expert (like an instructor or a judge) that his arrest was not in good faith, he could possibly be held liable.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    A Broomhandle with the stock is just a pistol since the stock is organic to the pistol, (milled and designed for the stock) and not added on. I have one, in fact.

    Cops generally do not study gun laws, especially arcane ones like SBRs and such. Look in any lawyer's office and you'll see bookshelves of laws that LEOs do not know and cannot know. Likely, the magistrate would have to research the law before handing down a decision on an arrest. An arrest "in good faith" would probably be tolerated but not proceeded with if it's for a act that's determined to not be illegal. However, say if a LEO was instructed by an expert (like an instructor or a judge) that his arrest was not in good faith, he could possibly be held liable.
    Yeah, everybody has their opinion about the law, LEOS especially. But that doesn't mean they are correct.Even those lawyers with all those law books on their book shelves. But few lawyers would know even half the law in those . That's why the books are there. And nowadays they have software systems such as Lexis Nexis and West Law to do research to see how certain cases have been ruled on and what precedence has been set. That's what the judge will do to make a ruling. He'll look up similar cases from the past and he will usually make his decision based on how it was decided before. This is precisely why the law is so strong against Unlawful Practice of the Law, or UPL. I have a bachelors degree in Legal Studies. I could be a Paralegal. I can do certain jobs for a lawyer, like legal research and do legal briefs and such for lawyers. But the Lawyer I would be working for would be legally bound to check all my work before accepting and using it in court. It's his responsibility.

    Also, if someone asks me legal advice, I am not legally permitted to do that. If I formally give anyone legal advice, whether for pay or for free, I could end up in court trying to keep from going to jail. Even if I do the very same thing the lawyer would, research the law just like a lawyer, it's only legal if a lawyer approves it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    In the military we had plenty barracks "Crap-hosue Lawyers" who thought they were smarter than a real JAG, usually those who listened to them found out the hard way their advice was not in their best interest.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    In the military we had plenty barracks "Crap-hosue Lawyers" who thought they were smarter than a real JAG, usually those who listened to them found out the hard way their advice was not in their best interest.

    This reminds me of a story about a guy at work who thought he was smarter than he was. He had a nephew he was raising that was in a paternity suit. This guy, Wally, went to the liberary to study up on law concerning paternity suits and went to the court to defend his nephew. The case was all the way up in Waco. That's about 260 miles from Port Lavaca. Wally got off midnight shift and drove all the way up there. So here he is tired and fighting to stay awake. So right off the bat the judge ask his nephew a question and Wally stepped in to answer. The judge told Wally to shut up and sit down or he would have him removed from the court room. This cut poor Wally's law career very short, hehehehe. We had a big big laugh at wally's expense.

    Lawyers and Judges take a dim view of amateurs trying to pursue their craft without proper training.

    :rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    These "Lawyers" were not paralegals or anything, usually just barracks rats who had their share of AR 15s/UCMJ action in their records..........most were busted, lost stripes/rank ....................musta not heeded their own own "Good" advice or maybe they did :rotflmao: :rotflmao:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Gene L wrote: »
    A Broomhandle with the stock is just a pistol since the stock is organic to the pistol, (milled and designed for the stock) and not added on. I have one, in fact.

    Cops generally do not study gun laws, especially arcane ones like SBRs and such. Look in any lawyer's office and you'll see bookshelves of laws that LEOs do not know and cannot know. Likely, the magistrate would have to research the law before handing down a decision on an arrest. An arrest "in good faith" would probably be tolerated but not proceeded with if it's for a act that's determined to not be illegal. However, say if a LEO was instructed by an expert (like an instructor or a judge) that his arrest was not in good faith, he could possibly be held liable.

    The way I saw it work, If you arrest a bloke for X reason, the Squad Boss sees there is a good cause to cut the bloke loose absent any charges, he goes loose, if the ADA says cut the bloke loose, he goes loose, by the time it gets to Court, there are substantial reasons why it went to Court, and not just on the say so of one Police Officer either.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,793 Senior Member
    Where I came from if the arrest was questionable, the facts of the case were given to the detectives at the station house to figure out BEFORE there was any risk of false arrest charges.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,623 Senior Member
    Where I came from if the arrest was questionable, the facts of the case were given to the detectives at the station house to figure out BEFORE there was any risk of false arrest charges.


    What happens when the detectives are dolts?

    Joking, of course, but many detectives aren't going to know any more about specific firearms laws than the uniforms do.
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    coolgunguy wrote: »
    What happens when the detectives are dolts?

    Joking, of course, but many detectives aren't going to know any more about specific firearms laws than the uniforms do.

    That is why Detectives have Supervisors, Sergeants, Lieutenants and Captains and Chiefs etc above them, and the DAs office etc, and a ton of reference material and guides, the Penal code etc... A Definitive answer is only an office door away.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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