Home Main Category Second Amendment/Politics

Guns purchased as intended gifts.

JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior MemberPosts: 6,563 Senior Member
This has been discussed before, but a recent conversation has rekindled the topic for me.

I try and be patient with new shooters/gun owners. They have a mess of misinformation, foolery, and out-in-out lies to wade through on their way to independent gun thoughts. A LGS didn't help me in this matter and I guess a LGS was not the most thoughtful place for this discussion, but that's where it occurred.

Browsing some guns, a friend asked me the legality of buying a gun for someone else as a gift and not in the context of the taboo and (in some circumstances illegal) straw purchase. I told him you are completely legal to buy a gun as a gift for someone so long as you are not perjuring the ATF 4473 form. The question interrogates if you are the actual purchaser/transferee of the firearm. The answer is YES if you use your own funds to buy the gun and the intended giftee is not the one funding the purchase in secret. Who I give or sell it to after that is personal business.

Boy did he LGS clerk go off on a tirade. Straw purchase this, prison time that. I actually thought he was going to make us leave. He calmed down, but his panties will be in a twist for weeks I'm sure.

I'm at my wits end with low information FFL holders. They provide no counter argument to illogical would-be paranoid gun legislators. If you can't defend the legal principles even at a basic level in your profession of practice, then what positive good are you in the scheme of things. I'm sorry but simply selling guns is not enough to spread the 2A love around anymore.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers

Replies

  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Years ago, I was enduring an ATF audit when I held an FFL. The agent and I were talking about federal gun laws, 4473, and other legal issues. This agent flat told me I could not buy a gun as a gift. He said I could buy a gun and loan it to the person indefinitely or sell it to the person. I told him that didn't make any sense to me. He agreed, but it is the letter of the law and how he would enforce it. I do not agree with his rationale, but how many other FFLs has he said this to?

    Selling guns in the US is a risky endeavor. Not only do you risk losing your business, you risk ending up in rape cage.
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Years ago, I was enduring an ATF audit when I held an FFL. The agent and I were talking about federal gun laws, 4473, and other legal issues. This agent flat told me I could not buy a gun as a gift. He said I could buy a gun and loan it to the person indefinitely or sell it to the person. I told him that didn't make any sense to me. He agreed, but it is the letter of the law and how he would enforce it. I do not agree with his rationale, but how many other FFLs has he said this to?

    Selling guns in the US is a risky endeavor. Not only do you risk losing your business, you risk ending up in rape cage.

    I believe the vast majority of alleged infractions one may be charged with regarding gun transerfer/sale laws would be won out in court.

    Buying a gun as a gift offers no malicious intent or even negligence on the part of the buyer. If it can't rise to intent or negligence qualifications for prosecution their case is sunk.

    Beating the wrap doesn't beat the ride though, I suppose.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    What if you buy a gun using your own money and fill out the 4473 form to reflect that it is intended for yourself, and then take the gun and the gift recipient to a FFL holder and have him/her do the transfer paperwork? Would that be legal?
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    https://www.nrablog.com/articles/2016/4/buying-and-selling-a-firearm-giving-someone-a-gun/

    This article brings up a some good points. Still some questions need to be addressed. Know your local/state laws, looks like it is legal, but doing it the "Wrong" way can put you in a pickle.

    Private sales and gifts in FLA are perfectly legal and the only onus on someone is to not knowingly gift or sell a firearm to someone who is prohibited from owning one. Say you had a friend at work and you wanted to gift him/her an old .38 from your collection or just outright buy them one and give it to them, far as I can tell it is legal as long as you paid for it yourself and own it until you gift it.

    Now husband/wife/brother/sister/mom&dad .............immediate family... should be easy because you should know their histories. However, if little Bro went through a nasty divorce and there were domestic fights and police involved , you might wanna do some more checking first. Same for any acquaintance.

    Gotta also ask yourself if anybody is worth the risk you ain't sure about 100% to lose YOUR right to own guns and ammo for the rest of your life if they are a prohibited persons? I say hell no.

    BATF say use a gift card and the person can make their own purchase is the safest way, hence go through their own BG check.

    I've seen several turned down at a gun shop when one would be filling out the paperwork and another tried to pay for it on their credit card with a different name, not related and said well its not for me but my friend who is paying for it or from outta state.

    Unless you are like Pantsuit an elitist, ignorance (or feigned) of the law is no excuse, us common folk will be charged.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    This has been discussed before, but a recent conversation has rekindled the topic for me.

    I try and be patient with new shooters/gun owners. They have a mess of misinformation, foolery, and out-in-out lies to wade through on their way to independent gun thoughts. A LGS didn't help me in this matter and I guess a LGS was not the most thoughtful place for this discussion, but that's where it occurred.

    Browsing some guns, a friend asked me the legality of buying a gun for someone else as a gift and not in the context of the taboo and (in some circumstances illegal) straw purchase. I told him you are completely legal to buy a gun as a gift for someone so long as you are not perjuring the ATF 4473 form. The question interrogates if you are the actual purchaser/transferee of the firearm. The answer is YES if you use your own funds to buy the gun and the intended giftee is not the one funding the purchase in secret. Who I give or sell it to after that is personal business.

    Boy did he LGS clerk go off on a tirade. Straw purchase this, prison time that. I actually thought he was going to make us leave. He calmed down, but his panties will be in a twist for weeks I'm sure.

    I'm at my wits end with low information FFL holders. They provide no counter argument to illogical would-be paranoid gun legislators. If you can't defend the legal principles even at a basic level in your profession of practice, then what positive good are you in the scheme of things. I'm sorry but simply selling guns is not enough to spread the 2A love around anymore.
    That law hasn't been passed yet, and hopefully it won't be passed. ha

    I've seen some on here get this mixed up. The law was originally passed to control Retail sales, not to control private sales and gifts between two individuals. Now I realize there are those that wish to control every aspect of gun sales and I realize that may become law sooner or later, but as things stand now, there is nothing illegal about it. That's the whole stink about having back ground checks on private sales. The government would be able to track of every aspect if our gun ownership which would be similar to registration, which is as of now, unconstitutional.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,494 Senior Member
    CaliFFL wrote: »
    Years ago, I was enduring an ATF audit when I held an FFL. The agent and I were talking about federal gun laws, 4473, and other legal issues. This agent flat told me I could not buy a gun as a gift. He said I could buy a gun and loan it to the person indefinitely or sell it to the person. I told him that didn't make any sense to me. He agreed, but it is the letter of the law and how he would enforce it. I do not agree with his rationale, but how many other FFLs has he said this to?

    Selling guns in the US is a risky endeavor. Not only do you risk losing your business, you risk ending up in rape cage.

    You also risk a court deciding not to following the existing law should the administration to decide to change its interpretation of the law.

    If I was an FFL, I wouldn't take the risk.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo wrote: »
    What if you buy a gun using your own money and fill out the 4473 form to reflect that it is intended for yourself, and then take the gun and the gift recipient to a FFL holder and have him/her do the transfer paperwork? Would that be legal?

    If that's how your state mandates you transfer a gun, then yes.

    The 4473 says you can't buy a gun on another's behalf. I take that to literally mean the receiving party shall not have knowledge of the gift or future transfer.

    It's gray areas galore, to me.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    I got an idea. Lets repeal NFA 1934, GCA 1968, and the Firearms Owner Protection Act 1986 and go back to the way it was prior to those acts being passed. Things might be squirrely for a few years until things get 'sorted out' as it were, but they would get sorted out.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I got an idea. Lets repeal NFA 1934, GCA 1968, and the Firearms Owner Protection Act 1986 and go back to the way it was prior to those acts being passed. Things might be squirrely for a few years until things get 'sorted out' as it were, but they would get sorted out.

    God, I wish.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    There are still a few places where the citizens tell the politicians to MYOFB where private sales and/or gifts of firearms are concerned. Tennessee is one such place, which is one of the big reasons I choose to live here. If people in other places lack the balls to tell their bureaucrats where to stuff their unconstitutional meddling with transactions involving private property, they deserve what they get.
    Jerry
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I got an idea. Lets repeal NFA 1934, GCA 1968, and the Firearms Owner Protection Act 1986 and go back to the way it was prior to those acts being passed. Things might be squirrely for a few years until things get 'sorted out' as it were, but they would get sorted out.

    but but that would mean the criminals would shooting each other on the street, just like they do now.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    You also risk a court deciding not to following the existing law should the administration to decide to change its interpretation of the law.

    If I was an FFL, I wouldn't take the risk.



    I think that if you're a licensed FFL you're bound by law to go by that law and do the back ground check and the whole 9 yards. If you're an FFL, you're doing retail sales when you sell something and the law covers that. That's different than a private citizen selling his own possessions.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,429 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    I got an idea. Lets repeal NFA 1934, GCA 1968, and the Firearms Owner Protection Act 1986 and go back to the way it was prior to those acts being passed. Things might be squirrely for a few years until things get 'sorted out' as it were, but they would get sorted out.

    If we can pull that off what would be funny and leave a lot of egg on the Libtard's faces, is when we compare crime and terror rates before and after the repeal and find that it doesn't change.

    Oh but the Libtard's faces would look mighty stupid. But then maybe some would get off the stupid Gun Control Kick. The libtard leadership mostly knows those laws don't do anything but harrass us anyway, but they don't care because it's their Agenda they want, not good, meaningful legislation.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
Sign In or Register to comment.
Magazine Cover

GET THE MAGAZINE Subscribe & Save

Temporary Price Reduction

SUBSCRIBE NOW

Give a Gift   |   Subscriber Services

PREVIEW THIS MONTH'S ISSUE

GET THE NEWSLETTER Join the List and Never Miss a Thing.

Get the top Guns & Ammo stories delivered right to your inbox every week.

Advertisement