Pig with a .45 ACP!!!

ZeeZee Senior MemberPosts: 20,941 Senior Member
I set out this evening to kill a pig with my Kimber TLE/RL II in .45 ACP with 230gr Federal Hydra Shok ammo. I wanted to see if the .45 ACP would fit my needs for close night time pig killing or if I really needed to look into the 10mm for the job.

I arrived around 9:00 PM at one of the smaller properties that I cull pigs at for a farmer friend. Scanning the field, I only saw deer. So, I drove on over to a larger property he farms and looked around there for a bit. But, I only saw one pig there and he disappeared into the cotton.

Arriving back at the first property.......I found what I was after. A huge band of pigs had entered the field and were feeding on the cut wheat. There were too many to count. Just a mass of crop destroying vacuums. Grabbing my gear, I headed south to get down wind of the band and then turned east to close the distance.

I had a TC Contender in .44 Mag that I had rigged up with a laser instead of a scope. I would use that if I was unable to get within 50 yards of a pig. But, my main weapon of the night was my Kimber TLE/RL II with a Streamlight M6 Light/Laser mounted on the rail and shooting Federal 230gr Hydra Shok ammo. This is the defensive ammo I carry in the gun and supposedly has a good reputation. Supposedly.

I slowly made my way towards the band of pigs as they fed through the field. Anticipating their route, I side stepped as needed and continued to close the distance. At 75 yards, I sat down, and hoped that they would continue on their path to pass within 25 yards of me. There were a mixture of sows and piglets with 3 boars in the band. To my left was the main group with all the sows and boars. To my right was a band of about 20 unattended piglets. I had no interest in them as they wouldn't provide the ballistic data I was after. They were simply interference for my main target.......that being one of the boars.

As the boars moved closer with the main group..........so did the piglets. Passing within 15 yards of me as I sat exposed in the middle of the field, I hoped the little suckers wouldn't blow my cover. One of the boars was about 40 yards away and moving closer. But, he was facing right at me and I didn't want to shoot at that angle. Unfortunately for me, there was a sow ahead of him. I kept the gun oriented towards the boar, waiting for him to turn........but, I kept my eye on the sow. It was just shy of a full moon and that moon was up and behind them. Meaning..........I was in full light for them.

Suddenly......at about 30-35 yards.........the lead sow stopped abruptly...........raised her head..........and stared right at me. DOAH!!!!! Busted!

I wasted no time panning the gun towards her. Quartering towards me, I painted her shoulder with the laser and sent a 230gr Hydra Shok on it's way. On impact, she dipped and spun away. Kicking it into hyper drive, she headed for the woods. I painted her with the laser again and sent another round into her flank as she sped away. Knowing I'd hit her twice, I looked for another target. Finding a boar..............way out there............I lit him up with the laser and started mortaring round his way. Yeah.........that didn't work. I could see the round impact short. I aimed higher..........and saw the round hit behind him. One more sent and landed short and behind. I don't know how far he was.........but he was further than I was capable of hitting a moving target with a .45 ACP...........that's for sure.

Looking back at my sow, she was nearing the end of her run. She finally stopped and teetered over. I gathered my gear and paced off the distance to her. As I neared her, I saw she was breathing her final breaths, so I waited for her to pass, then finished my pace.

130 yards of travel from start to finish.

Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%205%20-%20Copy_zpsmc3mqwta.jpg

I didn't weigh her, but I guess she is around 85-100 pounds or so. Or, I could be way off. No clue.

Entrance of First Shot (Yellow arrow from now on)
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Entrance Under Hide / Exit of Second Shot (Black arrow from now on)
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Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%2019_zpsurjxj4tf.jpg

Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%2020_zps4liykrmd.jpg

Under Shoulder
Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%2021_zpsmi5rimdh.jpg

Under Ribs
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Thoracic Cavity
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Both rounds struck the right lung.

Path through Liver
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Entrance of 2nd shot (after I gutted her and cut her udders off so it appears lower than it actually was)
Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%2028_zpsua2jjr3l.jpg

Both rounds passed through the stomach and intestines as well. But, for the life of me, I couldn't find the first bullet. I dug through the stomach and intestines to no avail. I either missed the bullet or it's lodged in the hams somewhere. But, neither shot exited! They just bisected the body shoulder to ham (1st shot) and ham to shoulder (2nd shot).

I do not currently know what the first round looks like, but, the second round and the only recovered bullet had......for all intents and purposes...........no expansion.

IMG_8180_zps2iq7vphw.jpg
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    I can say that I am NOT impressed with the performance of this jacketed bullet. At least........not at 30-35 yards. The muzzle velocity of this round out of my gun is 886 fps. It has apparently slowed down to much at 30 yards to effectively induce expansion. I might as well have had a Hard Cast bullet and after these results........I wish I did.

    So, let me FIRST say that I am VERY pleased and excited that I was able to accomplish my goal. To stalk within 30ish yards of a group of pigs and take one with a .45 ACP is pretty stinking cool and fun in my book. I can put that down as one of my favorite pig hunts. I am a happy camper in that regard.

    As to the performance of the round? It killed the pig. I hit her twice and she ran 130 yards in a few seconds. There is no question that it did internal damage as the blood and damage to the organs shows. But, I attribute that to the fact that the bullet itself is already .45cal in diameter! That in itself is a big chunk to pass through the internal organs. But, the bullet didn't expand as it was designed to do.

    Did I really expect it to expand? Not really. I knew as the distance increased, the chance of expansion would decrease. It just didn't have the velocity. Do I think the .45 ACP is a first rate hunting cartridge? No. Do I think it will work? Well.............obviously.

    Seeing what I have seen........I would choose a Hard Cast bullet with as wide a meplate as would feed and 200+ grains behind it. Then, hope that you aren't in a heavily wooded location, because I wouldn't expect much external blood.

    I have satisfied my itch. I have accomplished my goal. I have taken a medium game animal with a .45 ACP............in the dark. Check that off the list.

    Kimber%20.45%20ACP%20with%20230gr%20HydraShok%208-19-16%2010_zpsngjxqo3m.jpg

    Now...............I think I need a 10mm for a dedicated night hunting semi-auto pistol. Something with more velocity.

    By the way, I cut the hams off the pig in whole configuration. Basically, I have the entire butt of the pig with hide and all sitting in a cooler.

    I will be utilizing that to perform ballistic testing on some defensive rounds.

    9mm and .40 S&W

    Stand by for SCIENCE!!!!!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,765 Senior Member
    You had better results than I did with .45 ACP. I didn't do an autopsy, but it took me five shots, the last one being a head shot. I'm thinking 10mm with hardcast lead.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,825 Senior Member
    Interesting results, not quite what I would have expected.

    Do you think a lighter bullet traveling much faster say 185 gr bullet at 1200fps would perform better, or is the distance just too much for the .45acp?
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,822 Senior Member
    The basic BBTI ballistics , if the bullet started at 887 fps and the pig was shot at 35 yards and the bullet has a BC of .19 it was traveling at 867 fps with an energy of 384 FPE .

    Yes, the math isn't real world testing and I just quoted FPE, blah blah blah. In my opinion that's just not enough velocity for a copper jacketed bullet to dump hydrostatic energy.

    Brassfetcher.com has a great .45 ACP chart. In 20 percent gelatin, they got 10 inches of penetration with that bullet under almost exact ballistics and little expansion.

    http://www.brassfetcher.com/Ballistic%20Gelatin%20Tests/45%20ACP%2020%20Percent%20Ballistic%20Gelatin.html

    Breas Fetcher has done a lot of this work already. Here is a video comparing a 9mm 124 gr +p+ Hydroshock, a 9mm 135g Hydroshock and a .45 ACP 230g Hydroshock into ballistic gel, if you can stand the 2:247 seconds of high speed video and music.

    [video]

    What I see is the .45 penetrates better but the higher speed 9mm creates a greater hydrostatic shock. Brass Fetcher recommends the .45 over the 9mm.

    Now what about the 10mm?

    [video]

    [video]


    IMHO you need more velocity and the 10mm gets you there with a heavier bullet than the 9mm, and greater shock. Of course then again there is the 45 Super or .460 Rowland.

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • BigDanSBigDanS Senior Member Posts: 6,822 Senior Member
    AND BTW... freakin' outstanding shoot , pictures and analysis!

    I sometimes forget to mention that you rock!

    D
    "A patriot is mocked, scorned and hated; yet when his cause succeeds, all men will join him, for then it costs nothing to be a patriot." Mark Twain
    Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives.... now who's bringing the hot wings? :jester:
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I love you.


    I know. :hug:
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    And, you fought the skeeters and heat. You must love me to. Or, realized that my idea was freaking excellent.


    Yes, yes I do.

    I haven't figured out how exactly I'm going to utilize the hams for testing. Currently, as I said, they are a whole unit and still attached to the pelvic. So, I'm open to suggestions for getting the most bang for my buck.

    I can leave them together and send the rounds through both hams and pelvic with jugs behind to catch the bullets. Or, I can separate the hams and put a jug between them. Or, I can separate the hams and just shoot one at a time with multiple jugs behind.

    What say ye?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    bisley wrote: »
    You had better results than I did with .45 ACP. I didn't do an autopsy, but it took me five shots, the last one being a head shot. I'm thinking 10mm with hardcast lead.
    I remember your story and the lackluster performance you got.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Interesting results, not quite what I would have expected.

    Do you think a lighter bullet traveling much faster say 185 gr bullet at 1200fps would perform better, or is the distance just too much for the .45acp?


    At this point, I honestly don't know. I know that I am a true believer in "speed kills" and that I want as much velocity as I can get. But, I also know that most defensive loads are designed to work within a much closer distance threshold. Who knows?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    BigDanS wrote: »

    IMHO you need more velocity............

    D

    Thank you for the kind words and I agree with you. More speed!!!!! :applause:

    Thanks for the data as well.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    In my phone book tests hp rounds were did not reliably expand at 45acp speeds. I was using old school Sierra semi jacketed bullets that were not likely as good as the modern Federal bullets.

    I think that second bullet holding together is a good thing. Those rounds have a place. For more reliable expansion in AP ammo lighter and faster still seems to be the way to go.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • WeatherbyWeatherby Senior Member Posts: 4,808 Senior Member
    Excellent as usual.
    While doing your science maybe try some lighter weight bullets.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    early wrote: »
    In my phone book tests hp rounds were did not reliably expand at 45acp speeds. I was using old school Sierra semi jacketed bullets that were not likely as good as the modern Federal bullets.

    I think that second bullet holding together is a good thing. Those rounds have a place. For more reliable expansion in AP ammo lighter and faster still seems to be the way to go.


    The second bullet didn't hit any bone and the first thing it came in contact with was an intestine and stomach FULL of grass. So, I guess it got plugged up pretty quick and just plowed it's way to the front of the pig. As you said, I'm glad it made it's way all the way to the front.

    Maybe I'll still find that first bullet in the hams. Maybe I just missed it in the dark. Maybe.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Weatherby wrote: »
    Excellent as usual.
    While doing your science maybe try some lighter weight bullets.


    Thanks.

    With jacketed......it's a balance of weight and speed for the game. Guess I just pushed this bullet too far out of it's comfort zone.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • jaywaptijaywapti Senior Member Posts: 4,605 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I can leave them together and send the rounds through both hams and pelvic with jugs behind to catch the bullets. What say ye?

    :agree:

    My thoughts are if you separate them you might not have enough mass for full expansion.

    JAY
    THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,431 Senior Member
    Great work getting the in close and putting a .45 round into that pig. The laser is a great idea for those night hunts. I may have to get some for my 10mm if I ever get to do a pig hunt down that way. Like you, attempting a handgun kill at night would be a must.

    Stalking in the dark is awesome. I never have taken a shot at anything I have stalked in the dark because it's always been deer on the way out of a stand, and well after shooting light. It's just an excercise in stealth practice, but it's never netter anything. I'm definitely jealous that you got take an actual shot a "big game" (rancher's might use a different title) animal at night.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Six-Gun wrote: »
    Great work getting the in close and putting a .45 round into that pig. The laser is a great idea for those night hunts. I may have to get some cor my 10mm if I ever get to do a pig hunt down that way. Like you, attempting a handgun kill at night would be a must.

    Stalking in the dark is awesome. I never have tKen a shot at anything I have stalked in the dark because it's always been deer on the way out of a stand, and well after shooting light. It's just an excercise in stealth practice, but it's never netter anything. I'm definitely jealous that you got take actual shoot a "big game" (rancher's might use a different title) animal at night.


    It was a blast!

    You can see the ear plugs like I sent you, in my ears. They worked perfectly, as usual.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,103 Senior Member
    Very interesting dr. professor Zee, I vote for a closer encounter for the first shot just to see what the hydrshock may or may not do, nicely done again:applause:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    Stack the meat deep. Have something like a box to contain said meat. Screw water Jugs. You are going to the trouble of using meat, use...meat


    I'll have to put jugs behind the hams. Just in case.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    cpj wrote: »
    I would also shoot through ONE layer of skin.


    Well, there will be hide on the entrance and exit. I will try not to hit the pelvic as I feel it will screw the data. Being such a large bone. That is........unless you want me to hit it.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Very interesting dr. professor Zee, I vote for a closer encounter for the first shot just to see what the hydrshock may or may not do, nicely done again:applause:


    I think my .45 ACP hunting days are over for now.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,103 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I think my .45 ACP hunting days are over for now.

    Science! Maybe with gold dots this time too please:jester:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 wrote: »
    Science! Maybe with gold dots this time too please:jester:


    I gotta try a .40 S&W next. Then.........maybe a 10mm.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 11,103 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    I gotta try a .40 S&W next. Then.........maybe a 10mm.

    :bang:Sorry, lost my enabling-Fu there for a second, carry on.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Farmer just texted me and sent me this pic from this morning as he drove by the field.

    "Keep hunting! There are more!!"

    083E79B3-E56A-46EC-A6E9-45CD6A225E5B_zps1hi0qcwf.jpg
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Six-GunSix-Gun Senior Member Posts: 7,431 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    It was a blast!

    You can see the ear plugs like I sent you, in my ears. They worked perfectly, as usual.

    Great call on those things. They work and are impressively comfortable.
    Accuracy: because white space between bullet holes drives me insane.
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,151 Senior Member
    Let's hold off on the ballistic analysis for just a second. . .NICE STALK BROTHER! :applause::worthy:

    Non-expansion of the Hydra Shok. . .

    Kind of a long way and outside it's normally accepted design parameters. Might have been a factor.

    It IS an older design hollowpoint - among the FIRST of the "engineered" hollowpoints - and I think Federal is still making it because there's a number of agencies with entrenched bureaucracies with hard-to-change policies that say Thou Shalt Carry Hydra Shoks. We've had stuff that's probably better at expanding reliably for (ERG! I'm old!) over 20 years. The Hydra Shok was around when the FBI was putting the cherries on top of their bare gel/clothing/drywall/plywood/sheet metal/glass test protocol- most of the other stuff we use today was cooked up as a result of it.

    It doesn't look like you had a plugged cavity, but from what I know of pigs, they're made of stuff that would tend to do that, and the Hydra Shok is from an era when they were still figuring out how to deal with that.

    I dunno. . .The nice thing about a .45 hollowpoint - if it doesn't expand, it's still a .45. The downside there is you're kinda dealing with Forrest Gump's box of chocolates - if the bullet doesn't expand on a broadside shot, you might not get as rapid a bleed-out as you like; if it does expand on a raking shot, it might not make it to the Tootsie Roll center of the Tootsiepop. If you can reasonably KNOW what it's going to do, you can plan for that; if not, then not.

    So, perhaps a different HP or an attempt with wide meplat solids.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    It doesn't look like you had a plugged cavity, but from what I know of pigs, they're made of stuff that would tend to do that, and the Hydra Shok is from an era when they were still figuring out how to deal with that.

    No, it was plugged up pretty good. I dug the bits and pieces out and washed the bullet for the picture. I had to use a fork to clean out the cavity.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Farm Boy DeuceFarm Boy Deuce Senior Member Posts: 6,083 Senior Member
    Excellent stalk and really great write as always.

    So what is your new .45ACP carry bullet going to be?
    I am afraid we forget sometime that the basic and simple things brings us the most pleasure.
    Dad 5-31-13
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 20,941 Senior Member
    Excellent stalk and really great write as always.

    So what is your new .45ACP carry bullet going to be?

    Thanks.

    Eh, I have a BUNCH of the 230gr HydraShok. But, I also have quite a bit of the 185gr and 230gr Federal Classic JHP that performed well in the jugs with more expansion and less penetration than the 230gr HS. Both of the classics have a wider hollow point than the HS.

    I also have some 185gr +P HydraShok as well.

    So, I've no clue really. Gonna be one of those, I guess.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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