Are you sticking with the load you shot the pig with?
Yes.
Full Penetration but not Over Penetration
Adequate Expansion
100% Weight Retention
What's not to love?
I was honestly impressed with how much he bled. Out of his mouth, entry wound, and internally. Yes, it was 14 seconds to the ground for an agitated animal. But, that's 14 seconds from a concealable firearm with a controllable load that allows for multiple shots to be accurately fired. Yes. I am very pleased with the results. But, that does not mean I would EVER fire just 1 shot. Engage until the threat goes away.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Damnit..............I dont normally look in the Personal Defense section so I missed this when you posted it up.
From my point of view, any discussion about the efficiency of SD calibers/ammo is moot for obvious reasons. Having said that, this would have to be the most informative thread I have seen posted on the forum since I joined.
Dont know if this helps with the science, but a few years ago in my PC days ( Pre Camera period) I shot a large boar. It was trotting along a track at the bottom of a gully about 90m ( 100yds) away crossing from my right to left and broadside on. I placed a 140gr sierra psp doing just under 2800fps in the exact same place as your POI. That boar kicked into high gear and ran approx 75yds before turning uphill, ran about 15 yds up the side of the gully, reared up on its back legs and fell to the ground kicking. The damage from the initial impact point was almost identical until the projectile reached its body cavity where it turned the heart, lungs into soup. The projectile then exited through the off side shoulder leaving a hole I could put my fist into.
Looking at your pics and video gave me a sense of deja vue.
Still enjoying the trip of a lifetime and making the best of what I have.....
Very interesting, esp. to a non-hunter like me. I was pretty amazed at how long he kept going considering where you hit him.
Most everyone is surprised that animals and man keep moving after being shot. TV has ruined perception to one shot kills instantly,, NOT. Shoot the BG multiple times before you are 'safe'.
Most everyone is surprised that animals and man keep moving after being shot. TV has ruined perception to one shot kills instantly,, NOT. Shoot the BG multiple times before you are 'safe'.
This really drives the point home - definitely one of the most useful and educational threads I've seen to date!
-Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
"If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
Warning:The following thread contains pictures and a link to a video that are graphic in nature. VERY Graphic! A pig dies on video. Do not click on the link if you don't want to see him die. This is in the PD Forum because it is NOT hunting!!! I kill a pig with a defensive gun and defensive ammo for the express purpose of testing them as such.
Friend called me this morning and said he had a boar in his hog trap. Asked if I wanted it. Alive of dead, I asked. Alive was the response. Hell yeah I wanted it!!
Grabbed my stuff and headed over to perform a proper terminal performance test. I chose to use the ammo that I carry on a daily basis. It would give me assurance that what I trust my life with will actually work.
I set up the camera and placed a 3/4" thick piece of plywood behind the cage to attempt to stop a bullet in the event of a pass through. The pig was very aggressive in nature which was beneficial to the test in simulating and adrenaline pumped adversary with ill intent on his mind. He was ramming the cage, popping his jaws, and biting the wire. Perfect.
Gun & Ammo
Perdition - .40 S&W w/ 4.25" Barrel
180gr Federal HST @ 1,030 fps Muzzle Velocity
Test
Terminal Performance on live tissue at 7 yards.
Assessment of physical reactions and time to incapacitory milestones.
Autopsy to assess internal damage caused by bullet.
Results
4 Seconds from Impact to Blood Pouring out of Mouth
8 Seconds to Blood Spray Exiting the Entry Wound
14 Seconds to Animal Falling to the Ground
57 Seconds to Complete Incapacitation / Death
I has a 4" square to thread the bullet through and hit the exact point on the boar as I was intending. Initially, he kept facing me. So, I had the rancher walk towards the cage and then to the left to encourage him to turn broadside. Once he did, I reached over, started the video, aimed, and fired.
Autopsy to follow.
Great post. Thanks for sharing. My Sig 229 in .40SW is looking better all the time. Enhanced factory trigger and new laser grips make it a dependable assest for my old eyes.
Since you posted the water comparison, here's a wet newsprint of a 155 & 180 from a G22
What I see is that both water and wet news print (as well as ballistic gel) provide more resistance to the bullet and result in greater (prettier) expansion than the actual thoracic cavity. Which makes sense as both water and wet print are a consistent "viscosity" from start to finish. Whereas a live entity has skin and muscle and bone. But, the thoracic cavity itself provides less resistance. Resulting in less expansion from the low velocity of a handgun.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
The bullet did exactly as you can hope it to. You can't fault it at all. It disturbs me that it took 14 seconds to go down. A bad guy can do a whole lot of hurt in those 14 seconds.
True but as Zee stated if its a threat keep shooting,
JAY
THE DEFINITION OF GUN CONTROL IS HITTING THE TARGET WITH YOUR FIRST SHOT
WOW. I agree with others that this is by far the most useful and interesting thing I've ever read here. Thanks very much for all of the work you put into this. :applause:
Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
More proof that cardiovascular kills take time - no matter what the delivery system is. My experience on unsuspecting deer WITH RIFLES says it's about ten seconds. To see essentially the same thing on a riled-up pig of about the same size with a pistol surprises me not at all.
If you want an instant stop from a man-portable system that doesn't involve disrupting spines or brains, you're going to have to catch Captain Kirk on one of his time-travel adventures and steal his phaser.
This is an AWESOME video guys - providing us with a modern version of what Thompson and Lagarde were doing in the 19-ohs. What it does is flush all of that Hollywood nonsense of "BANG! You're dead!" down the toilet and give you a real glimpse at what you can expect to see from your carry ammo. I'm no doctor, so I'm going out on a limb to say that this is doctorate-level stuff, but at any rate, Zee is giving us some GREAT science here. Get the man a camo lab coat!:up::cool2::applause::worthy::usa:
After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.
“The further a society drifts from truth ... the more it will hate those who speak it."
- George Orwell
After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.
I agree and it was something I considered from the get go. The fact that it would be a dual lung shot on the boar. But, I could figure no practical way around it.
So yes, this represents a "best case scenario". Remember, the results just get worse (as to time elapsed) from here, with a single lung hit. Respond accordingly!!!
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Just shows how long it can take with an ideal shot, other than CNS, for someone to not be able to fight back.
Makes marksmanship under pressure even that much more important if all you have is a handgun (And probably a lot of rounds):jester:
After thinking about this it might be a little different defending yourself against a human coming at you. Zee's shot was probably the best case scenario of a cross body shot hitting both lungs and the pericardial area. If a bad guy is coming at you head on your angle won't likely give you that much of a damage channel. You might get one lung or maybe the pericardial area with one shot ... kinda lends me to believe that "giving" an attacker a couple extra rounds is smart.
The way to envision the human target is that it is impaled on a 3-4" diameter flag pole running from the bottom of the torso all the way up through the center of the head. No matter what the angle, you want to hit that flag pole. That gives you brain, spine, heart, aorta, vena cava, and trachea at a bare minimum. Angles other than the straight-on B-27 angle will add to that, but yes, absolutely continue to "share the love" - not only to increase the leakage, but to maximize your chances of connecting with one of those useful target articles.
The best thing short of CNS hits is likely to be severing the aorta and carotids above the top of the heart. The heart will keep pumping under those circumstances - into NOTHING - which will tend to depressurize the system a bit faster than actually taking out the heart.
Does make me wonder though. I saw a black and white video of a Nazi war criminal being executed via firing squad. The guy was blind folded and tied to a post with a target over his heart. 12, (yes 12) soldiers shot him all at once. He slumped over dead immediately. Granted it was 12 bullets, but they all achieved no more and no less of destroying the heart. Perhaps some are just more willed to survive? Hell if I know.
Does make me wonder though. I saw a black and white video of a Nazi war criminal being executed via firing squad. The guy was blind folded and tied to a post with a target over his heart. 12, (yes 12) soldiers shot him all at once. He slumped over dead immediately. Granted it was 12 bullets, but they all achieved no more and no less of destroying the heart. Perhaps some are just more willed to survive? Hell if I know.
Straight behind the heart is the spine. That, and those guys were executed with full powered rifle bullets. They say they give one guy a blank round so their conscious can at least somewhat deny that they were responsible for someone's death, so that would make at least 11 rounds.
11 rounds of 30-06/303 British/7.62x54 Russian/8mm Mauser aimed at centermass-- I would expect immediate death. Those rifle rounds are also going fast enough where hydrostatic shock becomes a big deal. The pistol rounds-- you don't get much of that.
Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
This is a fantastic video. Zee is doing some REALLY good work here. I get excited when I see Zee has posted a thread. It is always very informative. Good work Zee.
And to think you made that shot with no face is really astounding! No wonder you keep cutting yourself.
"People are responsible to play a role in their own safety." Sheriff David Clarke 2016
Straight behind the heart is the spine. That, and those guys were executed with full powered rifle bullets. They say they give one guy a blank round so their conscious can at least somewhat deny that they were responsible for someone's death, so that would make at least 11 rounds.
11 rounds of 30-06/303 British/7.62x54 Russian/8mm Mauser aimed at centermass-- I would expect immediate death. Those rifle rounds are also going fast enough where hydrostatic shock becomes a big deal. The pistol rounds-- you don't get much of that.
True. I never thought of that. Some weird things can happen though. Like the guy that was driving behind a car that launched a piece of 2 foot rebar into his head. Went through his forehead and out the back, penetrated his brain completely and he lived with minor impairment after surgery.
In truth, it's my own curiosity and desire to gain knowledge that leads me to do these off the wall tests. I just document them as well. In case I screw up.
So, everyone benefits.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
In truth, it's my own curiosity and desire to gain knowledge that leads me to do these off the wall tests. I just document them as well. In case I screw up.
So, everyone benefits.
Can you shoot cpj in the head and document the results?
How fast away were you? Surprised you didn't clip the wire.
I've been known to clip field fence with a 45 ACP. Dad wasn't too proud of that.
Measured off 7 yards. I knew it was going to be a tight fit (4" squares) with the moving around hog, so I brought a gun I felt confidently accurate with.
"To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
Replies
Well........duh!!!!!
:popcorn:
That's exactly what I was thinking about - my wife needs to see this too.
Are you sticking with the load you shot the pig with?
Yes.
Full Penetration but not Over Penetration
Adequate Expansion
100% Weight Retention
What's not to love?
I was honestly impressed with how much he bled. Out of his mouth, entry wound, and internally. Yes, it was 14 seconds to the ground for an agitated animal. But, that's 14 seconds from a concealable firearm with a controllable load that allows for multiple shots to be accurately fired. Yes. I am very pleased with the results. But, that does not mean I would EVER fire just 1 shot. Engage until the threat goes away.
I would love to try my 9mm defensive load and my .45 ACP load.
That means we gotta catch two more pigs of equal size.
These interest me as well.
From my point of view, any discussion about the efficiency of SD calibers/ammo is moot for obvious reasons. Having said that, this would have to be the most informative thread I have seen posted on the forum since I joined.
Dont know if this helps with the science, but a few years ago in my PC days ( Pre Camera period) I shot a large boar. It was trotting along a track at the bottom of a gully about 90m ( 100yds) away crossing from my right to left and broadside on. I placed a 140gr sierra psp doing just under 2800fps in the exact same place as your POI. That boar kicked into high gear and ran approx 75yds before turning uphill, ran about 15 yds up the side of the gully, reared up on its back legs and fell to the ground kicking. The damage from the initial impact point was almost identical until the projectile reached its body cavity where it turned the heart, lungs into soup. The projectile then exited through the off side shoulder leaving a hole I could put my fist into.
Looking at your pics and video gave me a sense of deja vue.
Left is from Water Test & Right is from the Pig
Both retained 100% of their weight but the water bullet expanded more.
Most everyone is surprised that animals and man keep moving after being shot. TV has ruined perception to one shot kills instantly,, NOT. Shoot the BG multiple times before you are 'safe'.
This really drives the point home - definitely one of the most useful and educational threads I've seen to date!
Great post. Thanks for sharing. My Sig 229 in .40SW is looking better all the time. Enhanced factory trigger and new laser grips make it a dependable assest for my old eyes.
What I see is that both water and wet news print (as well as ballistic gel) provide more resistance to the bullet and result in greater (prettier) expansion than the actual thoracic cavity. Which makes sense as both water and wet print are a consistent "viscosity" from start to finish. Whereas a live entity has skin and muscle and bone. But, the thoracic cavity itself provides less resistance. Resulting in less expansion from the low velocity of a handgun.
True but as Zee stated if its a threat keep shooting,
JAY
If you want an instant stop from a man-portable system that doesn't involve disrupting spines or brains, you're going to have to catch Captain Kirk on one of his time-travel adventures and steal his phaser.
This is an AWESOME video guys - providing us with a modern version of what Thompson and Lagarde were doing in the 19-ohs. What it does is flush all of that Hollywood nonsense of "BANG! You're dead!" down the toilet and give you a real glimpse at what you can expect to see from your carry ammo. I'm no doctor, so I'm going out on a limb to say that this is doctorate-level stuff, but at any rate, Zee is giving us some GREAT science here. Get the man a camo lab coat!:up::cool2::applause::worthy::usa:
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
- George Orwell
I agree and it was something I considered from the get go. The fact that it would be a dual lung shot on the boar. But, I could figure no practical way around it.
So yes, this represents a "best case scenario". Remember, the results just get worse (as to time elapsed) from here, with a single lung hit. Respond accordingly!!!
Makes marksmanship under pressure even that much more important if all you have is a handgun (And probably a lot of rounds):jester:
"The Un-Tactical"
The way to envision the human target is that it is impaled on a 3-4" diameter flag pole running from the bottom of the torso all the way up through the center of the head. No matter what the angle, you want to hit that flag pole. That gives you brain, spine, heart, aorta, vena cava, and trachea at a bare minimum. Angles other than the straight-on B-27 angle will add to that, but yes, absolutely continue to "share the love" - not only to increase the leakage, but to maximize your chances of connecting with one of those useful target articles.
The best thing short of CNS hits is likely to be severing the aorta and carotids above the top of the heart. The heart will keep pumping under those circumstances - into NOTHING - which will tend to depressurize the system a bit faster than actually taking out the heart.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
11 rounds of 30-06/303 British/7.62x54 Russian/8mm Mauser aimed at centermass-- I would expect immediate death. Those rifle rounds are also going fast enough where hydrostatic shock becomes a big deal. The pistol rounds-- you don't get much of that.
And to think you made that shot with no face is really astounding! No wonder you keep cutting yourself.
True. I never thought of that. Some weird things can happen though. Like the guy that was driving behind a car that launched a piece of 2 foot rebar into his head. Went through his forehead and out the back, penetrated his brain completely and he lived with minor impairment after surgery.
So, everyone benefits.
Bullet will pass right through. Nothing in there to slow it down.
I've been known to clip field fence with a 45 ACP. Dad wasn't too proud of that.
Measured off 7 yards. I knew it was going to be a tight fit (4" squares) with the moving around hog, so I brought a gun I felt confidently accurate with.
I asked dad what about the dead, goat killing coyote.. he said, "yeah but my fence..."