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Trump - flag burning should be loss of citizenship or jail

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Replies

  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    That varies state to state because where I Iive, insurance is required with four wheeled vehicles but not with motorcycles unless they are financed. Helmets are also not mandatory as long as you have a certain amount of insurance. The reason for that is if you get your ticket punched while riding your bike, taxpayers don't have to pay for scraping you up.
    Exactly. Safety has nothing to do with it.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Exactly. Safety has nothing to do with it.

    Actually, yes it does as the state figures that the chance of being seriously injured with a helmet on is reduced so they don't require insurance.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    That is about liability. Not concern of the safety of its citizens.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Government property is our property.

    Try getting onto any military base without ID and just tell the SP's that it's OK, you're the owner and just stomp the gas pedal.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • john9001john9001 Senior Member Posts: 668 Senior Member
    Now you're being silly, we talking about PUBLIC roads, and we being the PUBLIC pay for and own the roads.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Fisheadgib wrote: »
    Try getting onto any military base without ID and just tell the SP's that it's OK, you're the owner and just stomp the gas pedal.

    You equate that to an individual that does not choose to wear their seatbelt? Maybe you might be ok with banning guns on highways because someone might get hurt, and then there is the cost of investigations, medical, incarcerations and such. After all it is just a privalegdge for you to use the governments road. Or we could mandate governers on all automobiles. After all speeding is dangerous and you are blessed to be allowed to use the state owned highway. I would be for mandatory breathalizers in cars because someone might drink and drive and that is dangerous and has a cost also. Then there is distracted driving. So no more radios in cars would be a good action to keep the public safe and save money. It is clear that smoking should be banned while driving as well. You have to take a hand off the wheel and that is a public health risk. No more eating in your car either. Dipping your fries leads to death. I guess you would not have a problem with any of those regulations either following your logic. Are you really going to stick to you argument about their roads their rules? If you do you open up yourself to each and every instance I stated above.



    Again strawman. To equate a military base with a public roadway completely ignores the reality of the situation.

    And again it has nothing to do with safety. It is money.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Actually, the military base thing can be justified. From the Constitution, the government is obligated to defend the country-- it is specifically spelled out in there. In order to do that, they may at have to keep something like a military base secure. Part of that security may be to limit access to the public (even though it is public land). The public roads thing is in there under the "common good".
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Federal land is federal land subject to federal laws as state land is state land subject to state laws. You can't make up specific circumstances where their rules do or do not apply.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Now it's getting silly.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Buford wrote: »
    Now it's getting silly.

    What do you mean getting? This whole thread has been silly from the get go. A forum of gun owning, self proclaimed freedom loving conservatives, and half of them are charging up a hill with their half lib president elect to imprison individuals for expressing their own disatisfaction with government. Many of the same were talking about lock and load and secession when it looked like hilary was going to win.

    So it is fine to mount an armed overthrow, but if someone wants to burn a piece of fabric they should go to prison. That is silly.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,187 Senior Member
    What do you mean getting? This whole thread has been silly from the get go. A forum of gun owning, self proclaimed freedom loving conservatives, and half of them are charging up a hill with their half lib president elect to imprison individuals for expressing their own disatisfaction with government. Many of the same were talking about lock and load and secession when it looked like hilary was going to win.

    So it is fine to mount an armed overthrow, but if someone wants to burn a piece of fabric they should go to prison. That is silly.


    Once again you just dont get it. To some the flag of our Nation means everything. I will once again point you in the direction of the Marine Corps Memorial. Do you think those brave men would stand for someone burning that flag? You see fabric, some of us see the symble of our nation. Some of us get a hitch in our breath each time we hear our national anthem or get misty eyed when we hear taps. These symbles mean something to us. To you it is a piece of fabric.

    watch the video. Duty Honor Country
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Once again you just dont get it. To some the flag of our Nation means everything. I will once again point you in the direction of the Marine Corps Memorial. Do you think those brave men would stand for someone burning that flag? You see fabric, some of us see the symble of our nation. Some of us get a hitch in our breath each time we hear our national anthem or get misty eyed when we hear taps. These symbles mean something to us. To you it is a piece of fabric.

    watch the video. Duty Honor Country
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your life?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your freedom?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of hour pursuit of happiness?
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    That's right, it doesn't. No matter how sacred you may hold the symbol in point of fact their actions cause you no harm other than your butt puckers up and your head wants to explode. And you want to incarcerate someone for doing nothing more than piss you off. How hypocritical. Please never complain about a liberal wanting to outlaw any freedom of yours that does not cause them harm.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your life?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your freedom?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your pursuit of happiness?
    .
    That's right, it doesn't. No matter how sacred you may hold the symbol in point of fact their actions cause you no harm other than your butt puckers up and your head wants to explode. And you want to incarcerate someone for doing nothing more than piss you off. How hypocritical. Please never complain about a liberal wanting to outlaw any freedom of yours that does not cause them harm.

    What do you mean getting? This whole thread has been silly from the get go. A forum of gun owning, self proclaimed freedom loving conservatives, and half of them are charging up a hill with their half lib president elect to imprison individuals for expressing their own disatisfaction with government. Many of the same were talking about lock and load and secession when it looked like hilary was going to win.

    So it is fine to mount an armed overthrow, but if someone wants to burn a piece of fabric they should go to prison. That is silly.


    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."

    Alexander Hamilton
    First Us Secretary Of The Treasury

    In those last couple of paragraphs you threw out your own strawman argument while railing against strawman arguments. Nice; incoherent and ironic, but nice.

    If you hate the American flag so much then I suggest you sit, kneel, or wallow and wail on whatever surface is available at the time as it passes by. If it means nothing to you then you should do so during the National Anthem. It IS after all a war song written during a battle for freedom. War bad, slavery and indentured servitude to the government good!

    And had Hillary won and the House and Senate flipped to the Democrats during the midterms, and gun confiscation passed, you'd just meekly turn any you own over to 'the authorities' when they went house to house confiscating them. Stand for nothing, but fall for anything, just as long as the free crap and bread and circuses continue unabated. Yay Socialism!

    I get it. You HATE Trump, have zero attachment to the flag, and are mad that whoever you voted for possibly didn't win. And Trump is committed to repeal and replacement of Obamanation Care, with preexisting conditions coverage kept in place. And healthcare plans available from any state no matter where you live. Life sucks, but there it is.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,138 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Once again you just dont get it. To some the flag of our Nation means everything. I will once again point you in the direction of the Marine Corps Memorial. Do you think those brave men would stand for someone burning that flag? You see fabric, some of us see the symble of our nation. Some of us get a hitch in our breath each time we hear our national anthem or get misty eyed when we hear taps. These symbles mean something to us. To you it is a piece of fabric.

    watch the video. Duty Honor Country

    How I perceive the flag is one thing....and that's my right. How some fuzzy-headed college kid who has never had any skin in the game perceives it is another...and like it or not...that's his right. SCOTUS made that plain when they completely negated the U.S. Code regarding flag desecration.

    Pretty much everyone here is on the same page that no one has any business ramming their lifestyle/agenda/beliefs down anyone else's throat. You can't force someone to adopt your way of thinking just because it's the way you think, no matter how noble or "right" you think your way of thinking is.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    College campuses are forming "sensitivity police" groups to protect the offended.

    http://observer.com/2016/12/the-insensitivity-police-now-patrol-many-colleges/
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »

    In those last couple of paragraphs you threw out your own strawman argument while railing against strawman arguments. Nice; incoherent and ironic, but nice.

    If you hate the American flag so much then I suggest you sit, kneel, or wallow and wail on whatever surface is available at the time as it passes by. If it means nothing to you then you should do so during the National Anthem.
    Speaking of strawmen! I have yet to see one person on this thread come out saying that they find flag burning less than offensive. Of course it is. It is dishonorable and disrespectful. Nobody here has said otherwise. So how do you go from there to saying a person hates the flag without building a strawman?

    Nobody here advocates burning the US flag!!! Just that some of us feel it is free speech to do so and that to make a law against it will violate the 1st Amendment. Just like I have every right to walk onto a college campus eating Taco Bell while wearing a sombrero-- some may find it offensive, but quite frankly people need to get over it. We need a law to protect Marines from their feelings being hurt? Really? Are Marines even allowed to have feelings?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    6 pages.

    Like Trump or not, he's an absolute master of inflammatory rhetoric. The bully pulpit may be about to be replaced by something more modern and dare I say more powerful.
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,428 Senior Member
    Just like the invocation delivered by a local pastor before a Mississippi high school football game- - - - - -"LORD, MAY THE VISITIN' TEAM BE PROPERLY APPRECIATIVE OF THE BUTT-KICKIN' THEY'RE ABOUT TO RECEIVE!"- - - - -Flag-burners beware!
    :jester:
    Jerry
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    tennmike wrote: »
    "If you don't stand for something, you will fall for anything."

    Alexander Hamilton
    First Us Secretary Of The Treasury

    In those last couple of paragraphs you threw out your own strawman argument while railing against strawman arguments. Nice; incoherent and ironic, but nice.

    If you hate the American flag so much then I suggest you sit, kneel, or wallow and wail on whatever surface is available at the time as it passes by. If it means nothing to you then you should do so during the National Anthem. It IS after all a war song written during a battle for freedom. War bad, slavery and indentured servitude to the government good!

    And had Hillary won and the House and Senate flipped to the Democrats during the midterms, and gun confiscation passed, you'd just meekly turn any you own over to 'the authorities' when they went house to house confiscating them. Stand for nothing, but fall for anything, just as long as the free crap and bread and circuses continue unabated. Yay Socialism!

    I get it. You HATE Trump, have zero attachment to the flag, and are mad that whoever you voted for possibly didn't win. And Trump is committed to repeal and replacement of Obamanation Care, with preexisting conditions coverage kept in place. And healthcare plans available from any state no matter where you live. Life sucks, but there it is.

    Honestly Mike. It is sad that you suffer from the logical falacy, that if I argue for a right to do something I therefore agree with that position. If I were to argue that the kkk has a right to assemble it does not mean I agree and hate black people. It simply means I believe their rights are just as sacred as my own.
    I do not hate the flag. It is a symbol of the ideals this country was founded on. Those that want to incarcerate an individual for burning it are burning the ideals. That is the true shame. One is a symbol, thats destruction hurts no one. The other is a truth, thats destruction hurts everyone. Sad to see so many so called freedom lovers rallying to the destruction of the ideal so they can protect the symbol.

    Good grief one wants to pull their hair out.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    Speaking of strawmen! I have yet to see one person on this thread come out saying that they find flag burning less than offensive. Of course it is. It is dishonorable and disrespectful. Nobody here has said otherwise. So how do you go from there to saying a person hates the flag without building a strawman?

    Nobody here advocates burning the US flag!!! Just that some of us feel it is free speech to do so and that to make a law against it will violate the 1st Amendment. Just like I have every right to walk onto a college campus eating Taco Bell while wearing a sombrero-- some may find it offensive, but quite frankly people need to get over it. We need a law to protect Marines from their feelings being hurt? Really? Are Marines even allowed to have feelings?

    Thank you for the points of clarification.

    That was the biggest strawman of the entire thread.
  • CaliFFLCaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member
    Honestly Mike. It is sad that you suffer from the logical falacy, that if I argue for a right to do something I therefore agree with that position. If I were to argue that the kkk has a right to assemble it does not mean I agree and hate black people. It simply means I believe their rights are just as sacred as my own.
    I do not hate the flag. It is a symbol of the ideals this country was founded on. Those that want to incarcerate an individual for burning it are burning the ideals. That is the true shame. One is a symbol, thats destruction hurts no one. The other is a truth, thats destruction hurts everyone. Sad to see so many so called freedom lovers rallying to the destruction of the ideal so they can protect the symbol.

    Good grief one wants to pull their hair out.


    Well said. I wish I said this about 4 pages ago! 👍🏼
    When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.

    Adam J. McCleod


  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,187 Senior Member
    Sorry guys, I just dont swallow anyones right to burn a symble of our Nation. SCOTUS was wrong on this one.
    When I see someone desecrate our flag, it doesn't just make me angry and sad, it makes me want to choke the life out of them. It is the same as saying F America, F everything America stands for and is no different than denouncing your citizenship of America. Feel how you want, think what you desire this is America. But dont blame me when a true American grounds your face in the mud for desecrating a flag. But some will argue their point of view and put down those that don't agree then call foul when it is done to them.
    In some things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your life?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of your freedom?
    How does burning the flag deprive you of hour pursuit of happiness?
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    That's right, it doesn't. No matter how sacred you may hold the symbol in point of fact their actions cause you no harm other than your butt puckers up and your head wants to explode. And you want to incarcerate someone for doing nothing more than piss you off. How hypocritical. Please never complain about a liberal wanting to outlaw any freedom of yours that does not cause them harm.
    I'll give you 2 out of 3. Flag burning makes me very unhappy.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,138 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Sorry guys, I just dont swallow anyones right to burn a symble of our Nation. SCOTUS was wrong on this one.
    When I see someone desecrate our flag, it doesn't just make me angry and sad, it makes me want to choke the life out of them. It is the same as saying F America, F everything America stands for

    Funny how so many of us took the oath to ensure their right say just that....Freedom is an interesting and sometimes confusing concept....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    sgtrock21 wrote: »
    I'll give you 2 out of 3. Flag burning makes me very unhappy.

    Does it stop your pursuit of happiness? We are not guaranteed happiness, just the pursuit of it.

    Eta thanks for actually answering the questions. Everyone else that wants to jail, and or kill, flag burners just talk about their feelings.
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Sorry guys, I just dont swallow anyones right to burn a symble of our Nation. SCOTUS was wrong on this one.
    When I see someone desecrate our flag, it doesn't just make me angry and sad, it makes me want to choke the life out of them
    . It is the same as saying F America, F everything America stands for and is no different than denouncing your citizenship of America. Feel how you want, think what you desire this is America. But dont blame me when a true American grounds your face in the mud for desecrating a flag. But some will argue their point of view and put down those that don't agree then call foul when it is done to them.
    In some things in life, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    It is amazing how right Jerm was with his Muslim analogy.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    When I see the Westboro Baptists protest at a dead soldier's funeral, I would like to beat the living crap out of them-- heck, I would go beyond that. I am considerably more offended than the image of someone burning a flag. I hate those people with every fiber of my being for not only insulting a fallen soldier, but their entire families. It disgusts me that they exploit our freedoms for their sickening agenda. I really hope every one of them dies a painful horrible death.

    But you know what? They have First Amendment rights just like you, I, and every American does. It would be disrespectful and dishonorable for me to act on my selfish rage because those soldiers died not for a symbol of our country, but for the ideas in our Constitution. They swore their oaths to the Constitution, not to the flag.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tubabucknuttubabucknut Banned Posts: 3,520 Senior Member
    Jermanator wrote: »
    When I see the Westboro Baptists protest at a dead soldier's funeral, I would like to beat the living crap out of them-- heck, I would go beyond that. I am considerably more offended than the image of someone burning a flag. I hate those people with every fiber of my being for not only insulting a fallen soldier, but their entire families. It disgusts me that they exploit our freedoms for their sickening agenda. I really hope every one of them dies a painful horrible death.

    But you know what? They have First Amendment rights just like you, I, and every American does. It would be disrespectful and dishonorable for me to act on my selfish rage because those soldiers died not for a symbol of our country, but for the ideas in our Constitution. They swore their oaths to the Constitution, not to the flag.

    Yes.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,187 Senior Member
    I took that oath 5 times and lived it for over 20 years. Protect the constitution against all enemys foreign and domestic. Burn the American flag, the symble of everything this nation stands for, you become an enemy of the nation.

    I for one one hope the law is changed back to the way it was before 1990.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Diver43 wrote: »
    Burn the American flag, the symble of everything this nation stands for, you become an enemy of the nation.
    Symbol. That is not in the oath you took. That is not in the Constitution. Our constitution is the fabric that holds our society together. Undermining it destroys our country. Advocating people to be punished for exercising their constitutional rights is inconsistent with the oath you took 5 times.

    The law was shot down not just once, but twice by SCOTUS. The majority was a mix of liberals and conservatives including conservative hero, Scalia. Nobody has passed a new law because it will not hold up to scrutiny by the Supreme Court. Attempts to make it a constitutional amendment have failed.

    Every person that has posted on this thread agrees (we are all in 100% agreement!) that burning the United States flag is abhorrent. Nobody is disputing that. Where we disagree is if the issue is constitutionally protected free speech or not. I believe it is. You believe it isn't.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
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