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Photos Of Glock's Entry Into the Army MHS Competition

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  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    ..........................since I was already retired ...........................

    Wow, you are a Dinosaur :jester:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,531 Senior Member
    I still want one. I like the color.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 24,570 Senior Member
    JasonMPD wrote: »
    I still want one. I like the color.

    Might be easier to conceal, too.
    Shut up-----KAREN; OK Cynthia
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,490 Senior Member
    NN wrote: »
    What?
    You can snag it on a boot, part of your flight suit, a pocket, harness, belt, the holster... whatever. There's techniques out there. I've used a jeans pocket to get my handgun into action. With dummy rounds, but it'll work.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,531 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Proven designs do work, the also are the crutch of the unimaginative in both technology and business. If that was not the case everyone would still be driving hand painted Ford Model Ts. That was a proven design that worked very well, oh but wait! At one point it was considered revolutionary!!!

    The M16 and M4 are beasts of "economy" and they work well enough for the task and have a huge civilian market which makes for lots of manufacturing which keeps the costs down. And since they are basically Leggo guns that can be made into just about anything there is absolutely no economic incentive to improve on them. That and the logistics to replace them are a nightmare. That is all.

    I understand why Glock was removed from the process and what the RFP designated. What is frustrating is that Glock gave apparently no effs when it came to innovating even a little. It'll catch up and bite them one day.

    As to the M4 being an economically viable pursuit, sure. It's been trucking along since the 60s.

    The Model T analogy is a bit fallacious considering needs for more speed, towing, seating capacity, trunk space, etc drove the innovation process from necessity. Glock could have met the RFP without having to hit the drawing board, but they didn't. But severe innovation wasn't required like with vehicles. And vehicle tech is even stagnating these days because the overall requirements are met across the board. Now it's just tinkering with gadgetry and iPhone compatibility.

    Hey the Sig may be stellar. It may not. Time will tell.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,531 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Cute story...

    So let's address your armament points. The current crop of machine guns are basically dinosaur poop, do you know why? No MONEY to make better ones!!!

    Since the ownership of machine guns is strictly a military affair highly controlled by government(s) and with an EXCEEDINGLY small market there is absolutely NO incentive for the free market to create a better solution. Actually just about any talented 4th year mechanical engineer with access to a good CAD system could design a better machine gun with better materials, that would widely exceed the capabilities (while adding ease of manufacturing and a much better cost structure and maintenance logistics) of anything we have today in probably a few hours.

    BUT, they DON'T because:
    1- The federal government will put you in jail the second you create a prototype courtesy of the NFA
    2- There is NO MONEY in it because the market is peanuts
    3- And you have to wait for an entire generation of military leadership to DIE before innovation can be introduced because the high brass is married to what concepts they used in the war THEY fought. Don't believe me? I give you the F-35. A jet designed AND purchased long after the strategic need for the platform has been lost. You can do anything an F-35 can do better with a drone.

    Soooo, we are not graced with M-60s, BARs and MA Deuces. We are saddled with them because of no incentive or commercial FREEDOM to build a better mousetrap. And yes Americans love new stuff, some of us call it progress because maybe we've been graced with the ability of living past the life expectancy of our grandfathers because of better/more advanced medicine and anyone that has undergone general anesthesia should be grateful they never met ether or better yet clamping your teeth around hardwood dowel. Just ONE example, I'll be here all week, make sure you try the roast beef...

    Solid logic as to one aspect regarding the decline in popularity/use of sub-machine guns in he US. Aging/diminishing Colt offerings and damn near antique H&K offerings. For the public, semi auto sub guns aren't very exciting, so only a small market share in sales.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    Cute story...

    So let's address your armament points. The current crop of machine guns are basically dinosaur poop, do you know why? No MONEY to make better ones!!!

    Since the ownership of machine guns is strictly a military affair highly controlled by government(s) and with an EXCEEDINGLY small market there is absolutely NO incentive for the free market to create a better solution. Actually just about any talented 4th year mechanical engineer with access to a good CAD system could design a better machine gun with better materials, that would widely exceed the capabilities (while adding ease of manufacturing and a much better cost structure and maintenance logistics) of anything we have today in probably a few hours.

    BUT, they DON'T because:
    1- The federal government will put you in jail the second you create a prototype courtesy of the NFA
    2- There is NO MONEY in it because the market is peanuts
    3- And you have to wait for an entire generation of military leadership to DIE before innovation can be introduced because the high brass is married to what concepts they used in the war THEY fought. Don't believe me? I give you the F-35. A jet designed AND purchased long after the strategic need for the platform has been lost. You can do anything an F-35 can do better with a drone.

    Soooo, we are not graced with M-60s, BARs and MA Deuces. We are saddled with them because of no incentive or commercial FREEDOM to build a better mousetrap. And yes Americans love new stuff, some of us call it progress because maybe we've been graced with the ability of living past the life expectancy of our grandfathers because of better/more advanced medicine and anyone that has undergone general anesthesia should be grateful they never met ether or better yet clamping your teeth around hardwood dowel. Just ONE example, I'll be here all week, make sure you try the roast beef...

    Well the MGs are pretty good and the M-60 has been replaced by the M-240 and the BAR was replaced by the SAW (5.56 not a 30-06, but belt fed or a 200 rd box magazine) as a squad automatic weapon. The M2 .50 has had some upgrades, but is basically the same weapon. Nobody came up anything better for what it does.

    Don't forget the Mini-guns and Gatling guns like those made by Dillon Aerospace and others that fire 20 and 30 mm mounted in aircraft.

    Plus they have smart munitions and rifles to fire them prototypes that can do stuff like fly over a wall and then explode on an enemy hiding behind it and much more.

    I'm not an expert in jet fighters, but I don't know of a drone that can do anywhere close to what an F-35 can do, fly as fast and engage targets and other aircraft or one that can do what an F-15 can for that matter.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 23,146 Senior Member
    Why O why wasn't it a Hi-Point? :jester:
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Oh and the MK 19 automatic grenade launcher ................

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XZYvCUSusQI
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Dang, looks like the MK19 gunners rear sight don't wanna stay up...........
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,539 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    Well the MGs are pretty good and the M-60 has been replaced by the M-240 and the BAR was replaced by the SAW (5.56 not a 30-06, but belt fed or a 200 rd box magazine) as a squad automatic weapon. The M2 .50 has had some upgrades, but is basically the same weapon. Nobody came up anything better for what it does.

    Don't forget the Mini-guns and Gatling guns like those made by Dillon Aerospace and others that fire 20 and 30 mm mounted in aircraft.

    Plus they have smart munitions and rifles to fire them prototypes that can do stuff like fly over a wall and then explode on an enemy hiding behind it and much more.

    I'm not an expert in jet fighters, but I don't know of a drone that can do anywhere close to what an F-35 can do, fly as fast and engage targets and other aircraft or one that can do what an F-15 can for that matter.

    The M240 is the FN MAG....designed by FN in the early 50s - it's been around forever...the action is based on the BAR and we actually replaced the M60 (1957) with an older (and better) designed LMG
    The M249 is the FN MINIMI first introduced in the 70s and in use by NATO long before we got our hands on it...
    Rotary cannons? Richard Gatling devised the concept in 1861....in the late 1800s they attached an electric motor to a hand cranked Gatling and got 4500 rounds per minute out of it....the parts and design have been improved over the year's but the concept remains the same...
    Nothing really "new" out there with the exception of the M 19....
    Wambli's explanation of "why" is spot on...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,539 Senior Member
    SIGgal wrote: »
    OMG, I love that idea! Would be so pretty! Now if I can find a 1911 on a unemployed budget, and find a gunsmith to do it for me because he believes in helping a girl while she's down....... that didn't sound right :/


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    For a reliable 1911 for not a lot of money...look at Rock Island, ATI or Metroarms....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,183 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Yet for the machineguns that actually win battles, we replaced the M-60 with the even older, BAR-derived FN-MAG, and would have to be concerned about a mutiny for even suggesting to retire the circa 1921 Ma Deuce.

    I had FIVE M-60's in my frontline unit in West Germany. NEVER did all five work at the same time. Hate that pile of parts. Yes I had to carry it.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,539 Senior Member
    Tugar wrote: »
    I had FIVE M-60's in my frontline unit in West Germany. NEVER did all five work at the same time. Hate that pile of parts. Yes I had to carry it.

    I recall an "arms expert" saying the M60 was an "upgraded" MG42.........(insert bird tweeting sounds here)....:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Oh I think we have the worlds best weapons and can defeat any other military there is.

    http://www.military.com/equipment/weapons
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,059 Senior Member
    Zee wrote: »
    Irony:

    A Pencil Pusher and a REMF arguing about what a Knuckle Dragger needs in combat.

    Well, we've been doing it since the "experts" chose the M9 in 1986; why stop now?:jester:

    Which may be the amazing thing about this thread: nobody seems to be lamenting the Beretta's departure.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • earlyearly Senior Member Posts: 4,950 Senior Member
    The latest G&A shows how the 320 fire control unit pops out. Pretty slick deal if the gun's subjected to messy use
    My thoughts are generally clear. My typing, not so much.
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,183 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I recall an "arms expert" saying the M60 was an "upgraded" MG42.........(insert bird tweeting sounds here)....:rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao::rotflmao:

    I've shot both. The MG42 is superior.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Nope. It looks like Glock tried to give the Army what it NEEDED (a durable, simple to maintain, easy to use combat pistol, with a finish appropriate to the anticipated combat environment, requiring a minimal parts inventory that would work in a multitude of roles), while Sig handed the REMFs of Manhattan a bunch of shiny beads and came away with the island.

    The military intelligence oxymoron continues.:bang:

    Zactly!!
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    Well, we've been doing it since the "experts" chose the M9 in 1986; why stop now?:jester:

    Which may be the amazing thing about this thread: nobody seems to be lamenting the Beretta's departure.

    A lot of folks here don't like the 92 series, but I like mine. I even carry my 92A1 on occasion.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Want some fun take apart and reassemble the .50 cal M2 variation an M3P made by FN Herstal electrically/solenoid fired like they use on the Avenger Hummer mounted anti-aircraft vehicle and on some helicopters/aircraft, they were trying to adapt them to OH-58s (?) in Afghanistan.............when I was there.

    We had a class on them on Redstone Arsenal and man oh man the parts with a string of washers/concave/this one and that one had to be facing a certain way, you had to get put back in in a particular sequence was 10X more complex than a regular M2. Good thing they had a parts mat so I could match the pics with da parts..................
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,183 Senior Member
    LMLarsen wrote: »
    A lot of folks here don't like the 92 series, but I like mine. I even carry my 92A1 on occasion.

    I will admit I had and have that problem. I did it to the AR before I went to boot camp and later the M9. I have a 92FS now and I can admit I was wrong. The lesson is, you can't bad mouth it if you haven't tested it personally.
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    I've fired 92s and my brothers Taurus copy which is OK for what it is I admit, that is once he sent it back for repair because every time he fired a round the magazine fell out to the ground. Never had much desire to own either.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JKPJKP Senior Member Posts: 2,219 Senior Member
    I don't have any issues with the 92 but if I was going to tote it all day I'd take the Sig or Glock over the Beretta for sure.
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,682 Senior Member
    LMLarsen wrote: »
    A lot of folks here don't like the 92 series, but I like mine. I even carry my 92A1 on occasion.

    I'm not a M9 fan because of the ergonomics, particularly the grip and the location of the safety. I have medium hands and I have a hard time manipulating the weapon in DA with a proper grip. I've personally witnessed side by side comparisons of Soldiers failing to qualify with the M9 turning around and shooting the same course of fire with minimal additional instruction with a Glock 19 and scoring Expert.

    With that said, I've had some measurable experience shooting Glocks, M&Ps, revolvers, various 1911's, and the M9, to the tune of at least several thousand rounds out of each platform. Until a very recent experience, the only one I'd never seen jam up (to include the revolvers) was the M9. For that matter, I'm not worried about it going BANG, and if I must carry it I will. However, based on what I've seen, the .mil is long overdue a more use friendly gun.
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    "FOR $100,000,000 MORE THAN SIG!!!"


    Glock over bid the rest by a BILLION Dollars?
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,682 Senior Member
    Big Chief wrote: »
    "FOR $100,000,000 MORE THAN SIG!!!"


    Glock over bid the rest by a BILLION Dollars?


    Nope, but they definitely did by $100M.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Nope, but they definitely did by $100M.


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Wambli has been working too hard, all he sees is big numbers.............needs to take a break from business and go to a gun shop or the range :guns: :guns:
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Wambli Ska wrote: »
    FOR $100,000,000 MORE THAN SIG!!! How does this keep getting lost in the discussion?!?! And they failed one of the technical tests apparently because of the hastily added safety... :bang:

    To be honest I really don't think Glock wanted to win the competition. What they did is they provided a gun they could make a nice profit on, and afford to pay their laborers decent wages and stay in business. More to the point they made Sig slap themselves in the face for leaving a hundred million dollars on the table.

    It is stupid and a silly way to do business to provide something at a price so low you can barely stay in business producing it, not have enough money to be able to ensure really good quality control, and hope that you will make money on civilian sales.

    There is nobody here who would be happy purchasing a firearm that they knew was produced at $150 price point. Heck, you guys make fun of High Point, Taurus, etc for just that very thing.

    Luis
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,314 Senior Member
    Who gives a crap what Big Army uses for a handgun? If you aren't the end user.........sit back and watch the Clown Show.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
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