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Skolnick
MemberPosts: 47 Member
Driving while ???
Skolnick
MemberPosts: 47 Member
In another thread, alphasigmookie wrote "Driving while black is unfortunately still a thing ..."
I responded with a pair of similar personal incidents that undercut that notion and included an old Chris Rock video that used humor to show that DWB is exacerbated by non-compliance more than by racist cops.
Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Some have suggested that, racist or not, such police investigations and detention are unjustified. The US Supreme Court ruled in Terry v. Ohio that, what "the Constitution forbids is not all searches and seizures, but unreasonable searches and seizures ..."
So what do you think crosses the line into racism or unconstitutional behavior at a traffic or pedestrian stop?
I responded with a pair of similar personal incidents that undercut that notion and included an old Chris Rock video that used humor to show that DWB is exacerbated by non-compliance more than by racist cops.
Here is the video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uj0mtxXEGE8
Some have suggested that, racist or not, such police investigations and detention are unjustified. The US Supreme Court ruled in Terry v. Ohio that, what "the Constitution forbids is not all searches and seizures, but unreasonable searches and seizures ..."
So what do you think crosses the line into racism or unconstitutional behavior at a traffic or pedestrian stop?
Replies
Jerry
Where things lend themselves to unjust individual manipulations is in interpretation of the law. Police, courts and attorneys can twist, bend, and tie some of this stuff up until constitutional rights become arbitrary.
I have been detained on two separate occasions for walking while White in a Black neighborhood of Detroit. The color of my skin and that of the vast preponderance of residences in that area are tangible details.
In both instances, I was stopped because my the color of my skin made it highly improbable that I lived that neighborhood. The police wanted to know what I was doing in that area, and held me in the back of their squad car while they checked my story. Both times I was held for less than 10 minutes.
Here in Chicago, we have a Chinatown that is near a very bad neighborhood. When the police spot tourists heading in the wrong direction (even by car), they will stop said tourists and point them back to Chinatown.
If a cop thinks that race, or skin color, is something to be acted upon, is that racism or bowing to the reality of the circumstances?
I messed up the quote a little, my bad.
I think race is a relevant factor in many circumstances, and then it becomes a matter of application and interpretation on a case by case basis. This is where respect of law enforcement personnel as individuals and as a profession becomes important. In some cases these men and women are being asked to do a great deal indeed.
Yeah, in reality their comments are irrelevant but they make an impression or false impression I should say on the middle grounders. Not to say I believe that some of their bitch isn't real, but a vast majority is caused by just what has been said, most of the problem is brought on by non compliance AND I might add by attitude. The Dummycraps give credence to their BLM Bitch so they grow a chip on their shoulder and flaunt it. Then others see things written or hear their whining and chime in, thinking if so many are saying it, it must be true. This is all brought to us by our local Dummycratic party so they can drum up votes from minorities and Bleeding Heart Libtard Whites.
Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
First time was an Orange County Deputy at about 12:30 am. It was a helluva time to wonder how to handle the situation as a new CWP holder. Once stopped, the lights from his cruiser were positively blinding. I realized I could not tell when or where he may appear at my window, so disarming myself at that point did not seem like a good idea so I kept my hands at 10 & 2 with DL and registration at the ready. He almost surprised me at the drivers side window. I gave him my docs, he went to check on me, after a few he returned and let me go on my way. No mention of the reason he pulled me over and I did not think to ask.
A few weeks later roughly same time was an entirely different story. OPD this time, not that I could tell by the same blinding light, but a voice over the loud speaker telling me to exit my vehicle was a departure. I had no idea if he had a partner off to the side of me, so again disarming at that moment did not seem like a good idea. I did what I was told, exited with wallet and registration in my hand. He approached me asking for DL and Reg as I began to go into my wallet he asked, "Any drugs or weapons on you?" I answered honestly that I had a CWP and was indeed armed. Then the commands to.....
"Turn around put your hands on your head!" As he pulled his weapon, but keeping it low. He told me to go to my knees and cross my legs (shin over calf). I was in this position until the officers 3 or 4 back-ups arrived less than a minute later. At which point I was cuffed and eased to a face down position. They took my wallet and reg. They asked where my weapon was. I told them and they took it. After a few minutes I was informed of a fire ant mound near by it's inhabitants on my left arm. I asked to be stood up, I was denied the request. The fire ants really got going and I begged the officers for relief, telling them of the ants. They finally allowed me to sit on my rear bumper and brushed me off a little. This is when the night sergeant told me what a dumb ass I was for getting out of my vehicle while packing. I replied that it wouldn't have been good for my health if I was found handling a weapon if the officer came to the window. "We don't do that at night." was the sergeants reply. "How am I to know that?" was mine. He had no further information to give with that. I just wanted to go home.
I was soon handed back all of my belongings, including CCW which they put on my front passenger seat with empty mag and lose ammo and allowed to go on my way. I was not cited for any thing nor given a reason for being pulled over. Fire ant bites totaled around 10 or so.
Today I disarm at the first sign that the police are going to pull me over. I can get it into the center console before coming to a stop. This may not be ideal, but I feel more comfortable in case the script doesn't go how I envision it.
That said, being detained for walking is not reasonable. There must be PC to detain a citizen. White guy in a black neighborhood or black guy in a white neighborhood is irrelevant.
If you let the cops dictate what reasonable means, we'll have stop and frisk nationwide.
If I was stopped while walking, I'd turn on my phone's video and ask clearly why I am being detained. Unless the cop has a tangible answer, I'll ask "am I free to go?" paying close attention to the cop's demeanor. If he's agitated, I'll submit. I'm always armed and that will further complicate things.
In my hypothetical scenario, the cop's actions are not reasonable nor legal, but I'm not getting shot because I dared question the police. This is the reality that is America. Citizens possibly risking their lives defending their rights. Unreasonable, IMO.
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Adam J. McCleod
Something out of the ordinary is enough to stop someone briefly and question him. The officer who stopped the citizen for Walking While White no doubt knows the neighborhood better than the white guy did. Time of day is relevant. It's not a crime to go into a minority neighborhood, but neither is it a crime to ask him what he's doing there. In my limited experience, something out of place is enough to warrant a question or two.
Cops have an obligation to minimally intrude in a citizen's life, but it's better to ask a question or two than over-look a possible burglary, or a drug deal, or in the worst case scenario, a murder.
SCOTUS is the extreme arbitrator of reasonableness. Terry v Ohio defines the parameters of a reasonable Stop, which is less than an Arrest.
If you get stopped for any reason, Do NOT reach into your pocket for your camera, especially if you're armed. Your action may be misinterpreted as reaching for a weapon.
No worries, I'll have the phone out before he stops. I'm pretty decent at situational awareness.
Friday morning, I stopped at the ATM in a small town shopping center. It was dark and there was a guy walking, hot boxing a cigarette, and carrying a full black garbage bag like Santa. My first thought was "you are begging to get stopped by police." Although his actions are not illegal, I think the cops would be justified questioning him. I use this example to clarify my position about the difference between simply walking and walking around suspiciously.
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Adam J. McCleod
Jerry
Yet with all the many, many interactions I have had with police, I was never once placed into a cruiser. They have checked my ID and ran my plates quite a bit though.
Of course not- - - - - -they probably didn't have a 5-pound bucket of lard and a shoehorn! I got my first-ever ride in the back seat of a patrol car last week- - - - -the deputy was giving me a ride to buy a can of fix a flat after the spare tire we had just put on my van didn't have enough air in it to drive on!
:jester:
Jerry
*= In recent years. I have spent my share of time in the back of a cruiser, but I was younger and dumber then. And to reply to Jerry-- yea, they need to help squeeze my ass into that hard plastic seat. My legs are too long and my head hits the ceiling.
But let me say that on all those occasions, I was just doing my job and making the city a better place.
Now, within this black sub-culture, there is an element of disdain for authority (of any kind). It shows in manner, language, dress... all aspects of one's behavior.
Additionally, there are far too many cops who have a bit of an inferiority complex when it comes to anyone questioning their "authority." When it happens, the cops all-to-often react inappropriately. This escalates into a situation that can easily make the cop look badly.
But driving while black is mostly a myth. Not unheard of, but mostly mythical. The town I lived in for the last 25 years had lots of black people. For the most part, they were military, ex-military, military retired and military dependents. They weren't hassled inappropriately. Perhaps what was missing was the element of poor behavior?
The other day, when it was 94 degrees, I saw a black guy sprinting down the street with a doo-rag, long sleeves and long pants and a yellow traffic vest. Sprinting. I watched him for several hundred yards and he didn't slow down. This was 4pm in the afternoon. Odd behavior. If I'd have been a cop, I'd have stopped him to see if he was alright...coz he certainly didn't seem all right in the head! The fact that he was black was only a small fraction of the whole picture.
But, I'd bet he'd claim I stopped him because he was black.
I can't speak for the police involved, but my suspicion is that because you were a white guy in a black neighborhood, that gave police the suspicion that you were either in that neighborhood looking to buy drugs, or you already bought some and were on your way out. I'm not saying their suspicions were justified, or even legal to stop you, but I am willing to bet that was the reason in both cases. Not many white people will go into black areas for obvious reasons....out of fear of being attacked.
I was still wearing my security badge and my parking permit was hanging from the rear view mirror so I guess that helped him know I wasn't giving him a line of bull squeeze. The cops working that area finally got used to seeing me going through after midnight and didn't bother me.
― Douglas Adams
In the mid 80's I lived in N. Long Beach, CA one block from the Compton, CA border. Very few white boys in that 'hood.
Several times I was approached/stopped by police and asked about drugs. The address on my ID solved the issue promptly.
Adam J. McCleod
Attitude will make or break a contact with the police, most times. If ya act like an anus chapeau to the officer(s) you'll likely not be treated as well as when acting like someone that wasn't raised by wolves. Back in my teen years it was called 'copping an attitude' and generally went poorly.
― Douglas Adams
"Being found in Contempt of Cop"
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
Jerry
When the feller, or gal, you're arguing with holds four Aces, arguing is going to be pointless. If you feel that you were disrespected, then fill out a complaint, and/or take it to court. It's usually a lot less painful.
It's basic interpersonal relationship 101. If the person you're interacting with comes off as a jerk straight out the gate, then you're not going to be putting up with that for long, and especially if you're in the 'power position' in the situation. Employer vs. employee might get you fired. Cop vs. unruly person might end up with cute 'matching bracelets' and a ride to an overnight in a gated community. Some people never learned to pick their fights, and tend to choose poorly as a result, and develop that chip on their shoulder that gets more self inflicted wounding reinforcing the size of the chip.
― Douglas Adams