Maybe knowing he's not the only one in the situation who's armed makes a difference.
Jerry
More than likely it's because a CCW is a 'good guy' card. You have been background checked, and are not a wanted thug. A cop told a buddy once about his CHL: "This tells me you aren't a turd"
To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
More than likely it's because a CCW is a 'good guy' card. You have been background checked, and are not a wanted thug. A cop told a buddy once about his CHL: "This tells me you aren't a turd"
Been pulled over once since I got my CCL. I got pulled over for speeding, going 40 in a 35. I handed over my CCL along with the other stuff and told the officer I was armed. It was on the front seat beside me so he had me exit the truck and he took it and ran my info and wrote the ticket. I signed the ticket and we talked about firearms for a while after. He put the pistol back in the truck where he got it and we parted friendly, as it should be. May be a small town vs. big city thing, and I'm talking SMALL town, as in ONE OFFICER. :roll2:
“I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer” ― Douglas Adams
With as much traveling as I do, I've had several interactions with LEO's while carrying. So far, I've never been asked to disarm. A couple of times, I've been asked where the gun was located, and asked politely not to make any moves toward it. One town near Memphis that's notorious for its expensive speed trap and picking on out-of-towners for minor infractions was interesting. I got stopped for having a brake light out, and the guy had quite an attitude until I presented my permit. "What are you carrying?" "I'm headed for Memphis- - - -got my 1911 and three extra magazines!" That got a big laugh and a warning to fix the brake light!
Jerry
I can't speak for the police involved, but my suspicion is that because you were a white guy in a black neighborhood, that gave police the suspicion that you were either in that neighborhood looking to buy drugs, or you already bought some and were on your way out. I'm not saying their suspicions were justified, or even legal to stop you, but I am willing to bet that was the reason in both cases. Not many white people will go into black areas for obvious reasons....out of fear of being attacked.
Others have made jokes about the drugs, but that wasn't it.
First off, it was a very residential area. There were no active street corners and lots of foot traffic around a home would get noticed in a hurry.
The first time it happened, it was in the 70s and I was much younger than I am now. A neighbor called in a suspicious person and the police came to investigate. The second time it happened, a couple of years later, they witness me parking the car, with Illinois plates, and I got a bright light in my face.
1) it is much easier to avoid walking at night during June and July than during December and January; 2) in December and January, heavy coats make for increased suspicion; 3) a driver's license with a Chicago address does not help.
Now, they live in Riverfront Towers, a very gated community, so there is no problem.
without probable cause and without a warrant is a unreasonable search.
Not necessarily. A STOP doesn't require PC, just a reasonable suspicion in order to conduct an interview. Can't get a warrant each time you STOP someone, not time for one reason among many. It's also not a "search" of a person unless it goes beyond Terry v Ohio.
Courts decide when a search is unreasonable. After the fact.
I know you have a specific example in mind where an action is unreasonable, but in the practical real world, very few are.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
When the feller, or gal, you're arguing with holds four Aces, arguing is going to be pointless. If you feel that you were disrespected, then fill out a complaint, and/or take it to court. It's usually a lot less painful.
It's basic interpersonal relationship 101. If the person you're interacting with comes off as a jerk straight out the gate, then you're not going to be putting up with that for long, and especially if you're in the 'power position' in the situation. Employer vs. employee might get you fired. Cop vs. unruly person might end up with cute 'matching bracelets' and a ride to an overnight in a gated community. Some people never learned to pick their fights, and tend to choose poorly as a result, and develop that chip on their shoulder that gets more self inflicted wounding reinforcing the size of the chip.
This.
I've been pulled out of my car at gunpoint once, and got sprayed with a full mag of a SMG another time at VERY short range; fortunately the cop was a very, very poor shot or otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Both times it was THEIR mistake; I hadn't committed ANY crime.
Both times cops were EXTREMELY exited due to the situations involved; in fact in the 1st. situation I could feel his hands shaking through the gun I had shoved against my back.
In such situations, someone has to defuse it by behaving calmly and following instructions or even the slightest move could end with you being shot. Both times I did so and after things were cleared, they even asked for forgiveness. In the 3rld. world that's a LOT. Could have formally complained about it but I know that unless going to the media (Which I don't like at all, and they hardly pay attention unless some rating-gathering "minority" is involved), it would have been a complete loss of time and money.
Some people aren't "wired to obey", thinking that everything is an attitude match or that tough-acting and screaming works for every interaction with others, or have poor emotional intelligence to deal with "uncommon" situations; most of this is the product of inadequate education, specially the kind you get at home from your family and/or proper authority figures. Sadly most of the times they are the ones that end up detained, hurt or even dead.
Not necessarily. A STOP doesn't require PC, just a reasonable suspicion in order to conduct an interview. Can't get a warrant each time you STOP someone, not time for one reason among many. It's also not a "search" of a person unless it goes beyond Terry v Ohio.
Courts decide when a search is unreasonable. After the fact.
I know you have a specific example in mind where an action is unreasonable, but in the practical real world, very few are.
Amendment IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
"Speaking while white" is a thing. Apparently I can't express an opinion, anecdote, or observation of a statistic because I'm white.
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“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
Amendment IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Terry V Ohio allows for NO searches. A pat down of clothing exterior may be conducted if an articulable reason exists to believe the person is armed in connection with suspected criminal behavior.
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“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
I've been the subject of exactly ONE felony stop, and that was one too many. I was down near the Tex-Mex border, out in the middle of nowhere, late at night, and driving a car that was a dead ringer for one that had been involved in a robbery of a convenience store where the clerk was shot. Those Texas Rangers were not messing around, or taking any chances! Looking down the business end of a 12 gauge is a really good laxative- - - - -almost filled my pants right then and there!
Jerry
Not necessarily. A STOP doesn't require PC, just a reasonable suspicion in order to conduct an interview. Can't get a warrant each time you STOP someone, not time for one reason among many. It's also not a "search" of a person unless it goes beyond Terry v Ohio.
Courts decide when a search is unreasonable. After the fact.
I know you have a specific example in mind where an action is unreasonable, but in the practical real world, very few are.
Does finding and confiscating a weapon discovered in a "pat down" constitute illegal search and seizure?
Of course it does- - - - -but the JBT will get away with it every time for "officer safety". If he's feeling benevolent, he might even give it back- - - - -unloaded and maybe undamaged.
Jerry
Does finding and confiscating a weapon discovered in a "pat down" constitute illegal search and seizure?
It doesn't meet the legal definition of a search. In most cases and jurisdiction, unless you have a CCW permit, you're breaking the law. And the stop will go from a Stop and Frisk to a lawful detention and you'll be searched entirely and possibly charged, almost certainly in some locations. If you have a CCW, probably it will be returned to you.
If you, as an officer take a weapon off some guy you don't know who has no CCW and you return it loaded you're a fool with a death wish.
Look up Terry v Ohio. That defines the scope of a pat-down.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
State laws differ greatly. Arizona states if an officer asks for your sidearm you are lawfully carrying you must let him take it only for the duration of the lawful contact. After the contact has ended, if you haven't been arrested, the officer must return the sidearm to you. Officers down here have gotten in trouble for damaging law abiding citizens firearms when holding them during a lawful contact. The few times I have had my sidearm taken it was returned, as above, unloaded, but most certainly undamaged. Most want to talk guns for a few seconds before they head out. I also discovered at a young age that obeying traffic laws does wonders for getting tickets - last ticket was 26 years ago.
I have never been stopped in any neighborhood I have gone through for my skin color, but I regularly traverse one neighborhood where it would be unwise to stop looking like me. I had to stop at the convenience store, (only visible employer in the town), and I was "encouraged" to find another place to be.
Replies
More than likely it's because a CCW is a 'good guy' card. You have been background checked, and are not a wanted thug. A cop told a buddy once about his CHL: "This tells me you aren't a turd"
-Mikhail Kalashnikov
Been pulled over once since I got my CCL. I got pulled over for speeding, going 40 in a 35. I handed over my CCL along with the other stuff and told the officer I was armed. It was on the front seat beside me so he had me exit the truck and he took it and ran my info and wrote the ticket. I signed the ticket and we talked about firearms for a while after. He put the pistol back in the truck where he got it and we parted friendly, as it should be. May be a small town vs. big city thing, and I'm talking SMALL town, as in ONE OFFICER. :roll2:
― Douglas Adams
I guess that pretty much supports my theory...thanks.
Jerry
Others have made jokes about the drugs, but that wasn't it.
First off, it was a very residential area. There were no active street corners and lots of foot traffic around a home would get noticed in a hurry.
The first time it happened, it was in the 70s and I was much younger than I am now. A neighbor called in a suspicious person and the police came to investigate. The second time it happened, a couple of years later, they witness me parking the car, with Illinois plates, and I got a bright light in my face.
1) it is much easier to avoid walking at night during June and July than during December and January; 2) in December and January, heavy coats make for increased suspicion; 3) a driver's license with a Chicago address does not help.
Now, they live in Riverfront Towers, a very gated community, so there is no problem.
Not necessarily. A STOP doesn't require PC, just a reasonable suspicion in order to conduct an interview. Can't get a warrant each time you STOP someone, not time for one reason among many. It's also not a "search" of a person unless it goes beyond Terry v Ohio.
Courts decide when a search is unreasonable. After the fact.
I know you have a specific example in mind where an action is unreasonable, but in the practical real world, very few are.
This.
I've been pulled out of my car at gunpoint once, and got sprayed with a full mag of a SMG another time at VERY short range; fortunately the cop was a very, very poor shot or otherwise I wouldn't be here.
Both times it was THEIR mistake; I hadn't committed ANY crime.
Both times cops were EXTREMELY exited due to the situations involved; in fact in the 1st. situation I could feel his hands shaking through the gun I had shoved against my back.
In such situations, someone has to defuse it by behaving calmly and following instructions or even the slightest move could end with you being shot. Both times I did so and after things were cleared, they even asked for forgiveness. In the 3rld. world that's a LOT. Could have formally complained about it but I know that unless going to the media (Which I don't like at all, and they hardly pay attention unless some rating-gathering "minority" is involved), it would have been a complete loss of time and money.
Some people aren't "wired to obey", thinking that everything is an attitude match or that tough-acting and screaming works for every interaction with others, or have poor emotional intelligence to deal with "uncommon" situations; most of this is the product of inadequate education, specially the kind you get at home from your family and/or proper authority figures. Sadly most of the times they are the ones that end up detained, hurt or even dead.
Amendment IV. The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Terry V Ohio allows for NO searches. A pat down of clothing exterior may be conducted if an articulable reason exists to believe the person is armed in connection with suspected criminal behavior.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Jerry
Jerry
It doesn't meet the legal definition of a search. In most cases and jurisdiction, unless you have a CCW permit, you're breaking the law. And the stop will go from a Stop and Frisk to a lawful detention and you'll be searched entirely and possibly charged, almost certainly in some locations. If you have a CCW, probably it will be returned to you.
If you, as an officer take a weapon off some guy you don't know who has no CCW and you return it loaded you're a fool with a death wish.
Look up Terry v Ohio. That defines the scope of a pat-down.
I have never been stopped in any neighborhood I have gone through for my skin color, but I regularly traverse one neighborhood where it would be unwise to stop looking like me. I had to stop at the convenience store, (only visible employer in the town), and I was "encouraged" to find another place to be.