Police fatal shooting, boy had realistic pellet pistol

samzheresamzhere BannedPosts: 10,923 Senior Member
A fairly sad story. This teenage boy brought a very realistic looking pellet pistol to high school, was apparently waving it around, police were called. The kid pointed the pellet pistol at the police and they, having no choice, fired and killed him.

The news story is surprisingly neutral and even goes into depth to list supportive comments about the police, who had to make a split second decision.

Photos of the same brand pellet pistol are shown, also a real Glock that the fake gun is made to resemble. I'd have fired too.

http://www.chron.com/news/article/Parents-of-student-killed-by-police-say-death-was-2443734.php#photo-1998370

Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx

Replies

  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Tragic, but Mom's asking the wrong questions. Bringing the kid up in a "gun-free" home, he probably never had the basic education that you don't point a gun - any gun - at anything you're not prepared to shoot, and the ramifications of pointing said gun at police officers. My heart goes out to her, but only to a point - she needs to look at her son's actions and realize that HE TOOK A GUN TO SCHOOL, in a society where even pointing your finger at someone can and has gotten kids in trouble, and HE POINTED IT AT THE POLICE CALLED TO RESPOND. Something broke down in either the kid's common sense or mental stability here, and he paid the price.

    May sound harsh, but smetimes life bites you HARD for stupid mistakes.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    He was a fifteen year old teenager, who was apparently mentally sound, IOW, he knew not to do what he did. There is no doubt in my mind that this kid committed suicide.

    Unfortunately he didn't have the guts to do it in private, and as a result has probably traumatized these officers for the rest of their lives. The more I hear about this story the more pissed I get at this kid.
  • QuinianQuinian Senior Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    He was a fifteen year old teenager, who was apparently mentally sound, IOW, he knew not to do what he did. There is no doubt in my mind that this kid committed suicide.

    Unfortunately he didn't have the guts to do it in private, and as a result has probably traumatized these officers for the rest of their lives. The more I here about this story the more pissed I get at this kid.

    +1 I agree. My first thought was actually "oh man.. those poor cops when they realized it was a pellet gun" second thought was "stupid stupid kid who had to have known better and stupid parent for not teaching him better"
  • timctimc Senior Member Posts: 6,684 Senior Member
    While tragic as it may be I feel the police acted in the proper manor. Having been in a similar situation recently with at a local gas station with a drunk and his buddy arguing in the parking lot next door. The toy gun his buddy pulled out and started pointing at his buddy and everywhere else looked very real to me at 15 yards. Had he pointed it at me I would have drawn and fired fearing for my life; I already had my hand on my gun.

    15 or 50, you pull a gun and point it at someone you might just get shot for it even if it isn't real.
    timc - formerly known as timc on the last G&A forum and timc on the G&A forum before that and the G&A forum before that.....
    AKA: Former Founding Member
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    gunrunner, you're spot on with the comment. Even though the kid wasn't from a "gun nut" family he still knew damn well the policies at schools nowdays. And Eli tends to suspect suicide by cop. Very possible, even though his grades were good and apparently he had a decent school record. But this Mexican girlfriend bothers me, her maybe pulling the plug on him would be exactly the story of thing a lovesick kid might do, not having thought through the consequences.

    Luck for the officers, this is Texas. There are plenty of witnesses and that damn pellet pistol may have been modified (no red painted muzzle) so it looked real. I know the cops right now are 2nd guessing themselves but they'll get through it. The parents talking to a lawyer is to be expected. They just can't imagine their kid doing something that stupid and dangerous. But he did.

    From reading the story I think the cops acted well within their boundaries. This is Texas, not California or NYC.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    I feel sorry for the kids parent's and ESPECIALLY the LEO's that had to shoot him.
    If even most of what I've heard about this case on the news is true, I can't see it as anything other than justified though.

    To be honest, I'd have probably fired also had I been the one he was pointing the gun at.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • SlanteyedshootistSlanteyedshootist Senior Member Posts: 3,947 Senior Member
    I do not feel sorrow for this kid. Stupid hurts. I hope and pray the LEOs involved get through this okay.
    The answer to 1984 is 1776
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    Tragic situation for all involved....I'm also convinced this was 'suicide-by-cop" ...there is no way a 15 y/o wasn't painfully aware of the rules about guns and gun-like objects in school. It's also plain that the kid was using the pellet gun to intimidate and in a threatening manner. Listening to the tape you can hear the kid being ordered to "drop the gun!" multiple times. Initial reports indicate that this took place in a middle school, not a high school..if those initial reports are accurate, By his actions he was writing a script for his own death.



    I feel for his parents, but I don't believe this kid just "snapped"... I would bet that he waved plenty of yellow flags before he committed this act of terminal stupidity...pity his parents didn't recognize them...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,417 Senior Member
    Pellet guns don't have the red muzzle piece like airsoft guns, and the one shown in the press releases I've seen closely resembles a Glock, like it's intended to do. By the time you see the other guy's muzzle flash and know for sure the gun is real, it's too late to make the "shoot/don't shoot" decision. He just might get lucky and connect with the first round.
    Jerry
    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    I don't have much to add, but I read something from a local forum that I thought worth sharing.
    You may or may not be aware of my background. I retired from PSP with twenty years of service. I was a firearms instructor and a Troop instructor. The problem you are having is one of ignorance. That is not a put-down, just an observation that you are not well versed in police procedure.

    A little history lesson is in order. The officers at Columbine were widely criticized for not going into the school. That was because their training and policies dictated that a perimeter be set up and wait for the tactical unit. Because of those actions, the shooters were able to go through the school killing for a much longer period of time than if they had been quickly engaged.

    After that, police started training in "active shooter" procedures. The idea being that after a small contingent of officers, 3 or 4, were on scene, they would enter and engage a shooter. Any armed, mobile individual in a area with the potential of mass casualty will be engaged. He actually may have lived if he had barricaded himself alone or with hostages in a classroom. That is a negotiation scenario. His being mobile removed the negotiation option

    His only option when engaged was to immediately comply with instructions. He didn't and died as a result. It was the right thing to do and it was handled properly. It is a tragedy for the family and the officers. I would carry that all my life, knowing I did the right thing but also knowing I killed a troubled 15 year old carrying a pellet gun.
    Source: http://forum.pafoa.org/lounge-108/158892-8th-grader-armed-killed-police-texas-page-5.html#post1848846

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 10,233 Senior Member
    Our SOP was to engage immediately in a school situation, regardless of how many deputies were on the scene. To wait means kids die, in a real situation.
    Not too many problems you can't fix
    With a 1911 and a 30-06
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Lots of kids loose touch with reality, when I was nine I would not have pointed even a finger at a Police Officer.

    Sometimes a child can change behavior patterns and become completely abnormal without anyone noticing, until something like this happens.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,582 Senior Member
    One never knows 100% what one is going to do in any given situation, not an excuse for anyone, good, bad, smart, dumb, just human nature, I don't see this as a situation where BLAME must be placed on anyone, it is a very sad incident for all involved and one IMHO that should be addressed as that, not one to take "sides" no justification, no blame needed, a bad deal for all.
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
  • N454casullN454casull Member Posts: 358 Member
    Had a situation once, fair/festival going on. Lotsof cars cruising up and down a small 2 lane street, think marty gra, myself and 4 other guysare walking along the side walk looking at the cars and "sights" all of a sudden the group in front of us starts screaming and falling down running away. So I duck down and start looking around and notice a gun barrel sticking out of a car window. By this time all 5 of us are getting ccw out. Then somebody starts yelling something about paintball guns, so we all hold up car turns a corner speeds off. It turns out these idiots did a drive by paintballing. Saw them latter in cuffs sitting on the curb. We told an officer near by the details of our story and said these guys are lucky they didn't get shot. He told us we weren't the first people to say that.

    I think some kids just don't think period. I know all kids have brain farts on occasion but there seems to be some that that don't think period.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,055 Senior Member
    It's often said that a child's (young persons) ability to connect actions with consequences is one of the last things to develop...this is the kind of stuff that proves the truth of it...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,038 Senior Member
    Hmmm. . .let's see:

    1. Dumb enough to bring a BB gun to a gun fight.

    2. Dumb enough to point a projectile weapon - CALIBER AND MEANS OF PROPULSION ARE IRRELEVANT! - at a cop.

    3. Dumb enough not to comply with officer's demands.

    4. Too young to breed, or, at least to have bred much.

    Darwin has been served.:up:
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Win73Win73 Member Posts: 41 Member
    When I was a police officer I once had to make a shoot/don't shoot decision on a guy with a double barrel shotgun. Since he didn't have it pointed at me and made no aggresive move toward me, I didn't shoot. After I told him three times to put it down, he finally did. When I checked the shotgun I found it was not loaded. But if he had done anything to cause me to shoot him, I would have been totally justified. When you are facing someone with a gun, you have to assume it is loaded and he will use it. A police officer wants to go home at the end of the day as much as anyone else.
    (Luke 11:21 KJV) When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace:
    (Luke 22:36 KJV) Then said he unto them, But now, he that hath a purse, let him take it, and likewise his scrip: and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.
  • samzheresamzhere Banned Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    Teach wrote: »
    Pellet guns don't have the red muzzle piece like airsoft guns, and the one shown in the press releases I've seen closely resembles a Glock, like it's intended to do. By the time you see the other guy's muzzle flash and know for sure the gun is real, it's too late to make the "shoot/don't shoot" decision. He just might get lucky and connect with the first round.
    Jerry

    Thanks for the info, Teach. I thought all fake guns had to have a red muzzle. And I label a pellet pistol "fake".

    I don't feel "sorry" for the kid as I do the situation. His parents and the cop/cops who fired will now suffer the guilt. Eventually, since there were apparently some faculty witnesses, the parents will see the truth. Nevertheless the whole damn thing is tragic.

    Outside of a dog, a book is a man’s best friend. Inside of a dog, it’s too dark to read. - Groucho Marx
  • mkk41mkk41 Banned Posts: 1,932 Senior Member
    I'm sure the officer feels bad , but it'll probably get worse as some lawyer(s) will most likely convince the parents to file wrongful death or some other civil action against him , his department , the toy maker , and anyone else they can think of.
    "There are no victims , only volunteers!"
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Jayhawker wrote: »
    I feel for his parents, but I don't believe this kid just "snapped"... I would bet that he waved plenty of yellow flags before he committed this act of terminal stupidity...pity his parents didn't recognize them...

    Our hospital has a prominent behavior health division, and from what we see I would wager that the parents DID see yellow flags. But someone ELSE will be at fault for not recognizing the kid's issues from hour sessions every other week, or for not properly working out the prescription cocktail that would keep the kid controllable.

    Sadly, the problem children (of ANY age) suddenly become the family's bedrock, teddy bear, and cherished relative all in one, when the dust settles and the body cools, then it's time to look for the $$$.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 18,845 Senior Member
    But someone ELSE will be at fault for not recognizing the kid's issues from hour sessions every other week, or for not properly working out the prescription cocktail that would keep the kid controllable.
    Ain't that the truth. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault.
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    However, on the other side of the coin, when parents do approach mental health professionals for help in regards to their children, the help administered is many times too little and too late and a dollar short.
    reference the Columbine shooting, the young people involved were under psych care and medication, see how well that worked out for everyone involved.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
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