for teachers,trainers your thoughts on this

stanstan New MemberPosts: 10 New Member
what is proficiency with a handgun,say a 4 to 5 inch 45 and a 3 inch 9 or 38, on the standard target, would it be everything in the nine area, your thoughts?

Replies

  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 15,078 Senior Member
    stan wrote: »
    what is proficiency with a handgun,say a 4 to 5 inch 45 and a 3 inch 9 or 38, on the standard target, would it be everything in the nine area, your thoughts?

    If your talking for self-defense purposes - At 21 feet, if they can keep them in a pie plate or on an 8 1/2 X 11 sheet of paper they're achieving adequate self defense accuracy....we're not shooting bullseye here were looking for multiple big leaky holes in center of mass...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    Agreed. Part of my kit when I go to the range is a bag of 5" paper plates; if I can keep every round in the flat part at 15 yards, I'm happy.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • LMLarsenLMLarsen Senior Member Posts: 8,337 Senior Member
    And they're cheap.
    “A gun is a tool, no better or no worse than any other tool: an axe, a shovel or anything. A gun is as good or as bad as the man using it. Remember that.”

    NRA Endowment Member
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    stan wrote: »
    what is proficiency with a handgun,say a 4 to 5 inch 45 and a 3 inch 9 or 38, on the standard target, would it be everything in the nine area, your thoughts?

    If by "standard target" you mean the "standard" B-27 silhouette or similar, then the 9-ring equates out to about a small plate like the others are saying. And mere proficiency (accuracy) isn't the issue, it's doing it with some type of time constraint, and with some adrenaline dump makes it even better. It's not hard to hit the boiler room, even from ten yards (my daughter was doing this with a 4" .38 with minimal training and practice), if you're slow, deliberate, and calm while doing so. Even a 2" .38 or other "pocket pistol" should do this easily.

    Introducing a timed element can choke up an inexperienced shooter to the point they are challenged to hit paper at this range, I've seen it. The security company I worked for some few years back had a qualifier that was required at hiring to armed service, and at least annually thereafter, that was timed, from three feet to fifteen yards, and from "typical" positions (one-handed at three and seven feet, two handed from 7 yards to 15 yards, even some "barricade" positions at 10 and 15 yards, and if you let the "time" get in your head it's easy to throw shots (not equal I know, but at least somewhat like what happens in a stressful situation).

    Some trainers I've heard of will mandate a number of jumping jacks or a time of running in place to get the heart pumping before shooting the course, simulating the adrenaline dump of facing a life-or-death encounter.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,066 Senior Member
    Index cards are another cheap but good target.
    Set them up in multiple places on your backer at different positions.
    Getting the heart rate up and shooting under time or pressure is great.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Index cards are another cheap but good target.
    Set them up in multiple places on your backer at different positions.
    Getting the heart rate up and shooting under time or pressure is great.

    Actually, no.
    When I was under fire, I found it was best to mentally push a button and turn off in a manner emotions and keep the pulse and adrenaline to almost normal levels in order to shoot well.
    I was never able to shoot well or think well under an adrenaline dump.

    This was especially true working EMS an even more demanding and stressful job.
    I got emotional detachment down so well that many folks would ask My partners if I was a human or a robot.

    Edited to add:

    There are two lessons I have learned well on My own:
    I feel that timed draws and timed shooting are not good exercises.

    Why ? because there are so many other important details to work on, that by the time you get equipment that fits you best, and you put in enough range time, and send enough lead downrange, then you will achieve "time" in due time.

    Good or quick time is the sum total of equipment, training and practice.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 7,066 Senior Member
    I have never been under fire, so, I cannot say for sure how I would respond.

    That is good that you got the detachment thing down to a science.
    I hope the normal guy without the experiences you have had, can do the same.

    Without timed draws or a timed shooting I have watched people fall apart and forget things they know simply because they are being tested or scored.
    Before that, when just shooting they did quite well.
    I do not encourage speed before technique.
    Since I do not know what may happen, I do not try to plan a specific response, but rather will let the situation determine that.
    From guys I trust, regardless of their training, "Murphy" always tends to throw in some twists to where things happen differently than you would expect.
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    Well speaking from personal experience, and having been shot, something I hope others need not experience, calm and cold emotional detachment and keeping that pulse down is your greatest friend.

    Perhaps most folks never get enough range time, due to monetary / time constraints etc.. but I found that after a certain amount of range hours, (virtually unlimited) and huge amounts of department / Government issued ammo and access to various ranges, My time eventually improved.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    "Since I do not know what may happen, I do not try to plan a specific response, but rather will let the situation determine that.
    From guys I trust, regardless of their training, "Murphy" always tends to throw in some twists to where things happen differently than you would expect."

    I have never worked in any endeavor, Medical or Technical, where even after extensive training and practice in the field, that I could know what to expect or what could happen at any given time, EMS was a great example, the only thing that helped were the constant CME required and lots of time I spent in the ER of many major trauma hospitals.

    Working as a LEO was pretty much the same as far as not knowing what you might run into on any given day.
    You don't start a tour of duty as a LEO or Soldier saying, gee, I think I will get shot today.......... it just happens.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    Good points Dr Who, and I have recommended to several other shooters that form and technique should come way before striving for "speed", either in draw or in shooting. Focus on accuracy and hitting your target, and as you develop the skills, speed becomes a by-product through practice and familiarity.

    I'd bet, though, that like Ernie said, the closest most of us would come to shooting under pressure is on the range with a timer beeping or an official calling times. As a starting point for defensive shooting, this has something going for it, as most of us can't achieve that professional detachment. And it builds confidence (always a valuable thing) that you CAN perform with a little bit of pressure.

    I've heard some say that IDPA, IPSC, PPC, etc. "competitive shoots" aren't worth doing, because of the "unrealistic scenarios" involved and an emphasis on "gaming" and equipment. Granted, we may never be called on to take out multiple hostage-takers holding innocents as shields while moving from the bathroom to the garage, but knowing you have the skill to make a difficult shot and knowing exactly what your gun and ammo will do is invaluable if we ever face the need to exercise those skills in real life.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    You may laugh if I tell you what I think helps shooting, playing lots of (sports) basketball or softball in addition to shooting exercises.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    No laughing here - I hear exactly what you're saying.

    Cardio and conditioning. If you get winded climbing a flight or two of stairs, your body is going to get mighty unpredictable when the adrenaline kicks in.
  • bruchibruchi Senior Member Posts: 2,582 Senior Member
    As I have no clue on how I will fare under pressure I try to push myself farther when at the range, for me a defense handgun is one I can put all rounds on an 8.5 x 11" paper offhand at 25 yards and I train for that, no effort no gain. That is a bit over 3 times the FBI's conclusion that most defense situations occur inside 7 yards.

    I figure that the extra effort while training will hopefully develop enough muscle memory to hit what I mean at closer distances under stress.

    IPSC helps some on the stress and cardio, lots of running on the local matches under very hot sun under a timer and an audience, still nothing at all like the real thing but at least a bit more effort required than shooting static paper at the comfort of the range.

    I want one of this, no recoil but at least you can train for that first shot anywhere, anytime!

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VO1m1JNZNOw&feature=player_embedded

    My 2 cents...
    If this post is non welcomed, I can always give you a recipe for making "tostones".
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