Eli the Ice man

Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior MemberPosts: 1,230 Senior Member
Without googling does anyone else know what Eli the Iceman means?

I was working with the Windstream techs down in the Houston area last week.  They purchase a lot of my companies equipment to test and trouble shoot their outside plant, Lan/Wan networks as well as fiber networks.  We got onto one aspect of copper testing when a tech asks at any point does the Eli the Iceman effect come into play with what we're testing.  I wasn't sure if he threw this question out randomly or wondered if I knew what he was talking about.  I said absolutely but not really, why do you ask.  He said do you really know what it means?  Yeah I do, I still remember a lot of my electronic class stuff.  He said they had learned about in his electronic class at his college a couple evenings before. 

I explained what Eli the Iceman was, said it's nothing tangible that you'll ever go trouble shoot of fix.  It's more so about the physics of voltage and current on your lines when you extend plain old telephone service over long distances.  He's been emailing me after his classes now to ask for layman terms on some of the stuff his professor is giving them.  I asked doesn't he explain himself.  Well yes we think so, the only problem is no one can understand him with his thick Asian accent.  To which I replied "gotcha"

My wife will tell you it's amazing I can remember random technical stuff and not remember to take out the trash.
Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

John 3: 1-21
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Replies

  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,408 Senior Member
    edited March 13 #2
    I remember it from a long time ago..............but here is a good refresher...........maybe a little too technical for most of our uses, but explains how it ELI and ICE apply to AC.

    OK that's it............I'm saving my brain cells for future use now that I am R&R (Retired & R_E _T_A_R_D_E_D)

    https://www.khanacademy.org/science/electrical-engineering/ee-circuit-analysis-topic/ee-ac-analysis/v/ee-eli-the-ice-man
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    Without googling does anyone else know what Eli the Iceman means?

    I was working with the Windstream techs down in the Houston area last week.  They purchase a lot of my companies equipment to test and trouble shoot their outside plant, Lan/Wan networks as well as fiber networks.  We got onto one aspect of copper testing when a tech asks at any point does the Eli the Iceman effect come into play with what we're testing.  I wasn't sure if he threw this question out randomly or wondered if I knew what he was talking about.  I said absolutely but not really, why do you ask.  He said do you really know what it means?  Yeah I do, I still remember a lot of my electronic class stuff.  He said they had learned about in his electronic class at his college a couple evenings before. 

    I explained what Eli the Iceman was, said it's nothing tangible that you'll ever go trouble shoot of fix.  It's more so about the physics of voltage and current on your lines when you extend plain old telephone service over long distances.  He's been emailing me after his classes now to ask for layman terms on some of the stuff his professor is giving them.  I asked doesn't he explain himself.  Well yes we think so, the only problem is no one can understand him with his thick Asian accent.  To which I replied "gotcha"

    My wife will tell you it's amazing I can remember random technical stuff and not remember to take out the trash.
    It can have very tangible affects on transmission in real world plant. Noise Mitigation was something I got into pretty heavy about 20 years ago. The effect of unbalanced power grids on telecom can drive you bat snot crazy with analog. And I can tell them how to fix 98% of it in a sentence. Bond and ground the sheath as per the old Bellcore standards checking every bond for flow with a ammeter. It doesnt have to be long distances, a sheath break in floated cable will induce all kinds of fun stuff. Tell him to pay attention when the prof goes over the Third Odd Harmonic.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • shushshush Senior Member Posts: 6,260 Senior Member

    Varmintmist saw this;


    Thought of you.


    cjp wrote: »..... Oh dear God, I've admitted to liking something Limey.I'll never hear the end of this.

    Jayhawker wrote: »...But seriously Shush....

    Big Chief wrote: ».........walking around with a greasy butt ain't no fun, though!

     


     

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,281 Senior Member
    edited March 13 #5
     And I can tell them how to fix 98% of it in a sentence. Bond and ground the sheath as per the old Bellcore standards checking every bond for flow with a ammeter.

    For whatever reason, I can't seem to be able to get my cursor outside the quote box - so the above is Varmintmist, below is Zorba:

    Absolutely YES! If you check a circuit - ANY kind of circuit - 10 times, and everything is right, but it seems to be defying the laws of physics, its a grounding problem! The higher the frequency, the weirder it becomes!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • hawk18hawk18 Senior Member Posts: 691 Senior Member
    Yes I remember but I had not thought about it for years. 

    As as to the instructor's accent, in a microbiology class at UMR in the sixties, the only thing I understood through the whole course was that we had to wear socks. Luckily, it never mattered. 

    Hawk
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    Without googling does anyone else know what Eli the Iceman means?

    I was working with the Windstream techs down in the Houston area last week.  They purchase a lot of my companies equipment to test and trouble shoot their outside plant, Lan/Wan networks as well as fiber networks.  We got onto one aspect of copper testing when a tech asks at any point does the Eli the Iceman effect come into play with what we're testing.  I wasn't sure if he threw this question out randomly or wondered if I knew what he was talking about.  I said absolutely but not really, why do you ask.  He said do you really know what it means?  Yeah I do, I still remember a lot of my electronic class stuff.  He said they had learned about in his electronic class at his college a couple evenings before. 

    I explained what Eli the Iceman was, said it's nothing tangible that you'll ever go trouble shoot of fix.  It's more so about the physics of voltage and current on your lines when you extend plain old telephone service over long distances.  He's been emailing me after his classes now to ask for layman terms on some of the stuff his professor is giving them.  I asked doesn't he explain himself.  Well yes we think so, the only problem is no one can understand him with his thick Asian accent.  To which I replied "gotcha"

    My wife will tell you it's amazing I can remember random technical stuff and not remember to take out the trash.
    It can have very tangible affects on transmission in real world plant. Noise Mitigation was something I got into pretty heavy about 20 years ago. The effect of unbalanced power grids on telecom can drive you bat snot crazy with analog. And I can tell them how to fix 98% of it in a sentence. Bond and ground the sheath as per the old Bellcore standards checking every bond for flow with a ammeter. It doesnt have to be long distances, a sheath break in floated cable will induce all kinds of fun stuff. Tell him to pay attention when the prof goes over the Third Odd Harmonic.
    Now were talking I love teaching and trouble shooting noise mitigation and power harmonics. And you're correct, bonding, shield and grounding takes care of 98% of the issues for the most part.   OK who did you work for 20 years ago.  I had sixteen years at AT&T and Bellcore before leaving the Bell System in 95.  Can't say I've ever had anyone ever use the term Eli the Iceman testing Power Harmonics but can see it.  Yes every third Power Harmonic can create issues but problems usually fall on the 9th harmonic 540Hz.  Eli the Iceman is usually used for long distance electrical transmissions when current lags voltage and gets 90 degrees out of phase.  The use of load coils...aka inductors will put current and voltage back in phase on POT's lines.

    Great chat!
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    I worked for United Telephone/United telephone, a Sprint Company/ Sprint United/Sprint with a 6 line logo/Sprint with a 4 line logo/Embarq/Centurylink/ stand by they are thinking again...

    The term helps explain the differences in pwr influance, and why. Not really a direct effect on the transmission but a contributor.

    Want to really have a brain bleeder? Eng Joe has a job in the 70's to run a 300pr from the CO to the new office building. A 900' pull through manholes. Eng Joe goes shopping at Sams discount cable mart and gets a great deal on cable. Out of spec cable that they cant sell. The ultra cheap out of spec cable is only going 900' and will make Joe look good so he buys it, after all, its just POTS and maybe a 9600 DS0 ckt. Enter the 90's when every one is running at least a T1 to the bathroom in office buildings and DSL is screaming at a eye bleeding 500K and NONE SHALL PASS without errors. You will NEVER find a electrical problem on that cable. No ground short cross or bleed, but it would run data for beans.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    zorba said:
     And I can tell them how to fix 98% of it in a sentence. Bond and ground the sheath as per the old Bellcore standards checking every bond for flow with a ammeter.

    For whatever reason, I can't seem to be able to get my cursor outside the quote box - so the above is Varmintmist, below is Zorba:

    Absolutely YES! If you check a circuit - ANY kind of circuit - 10 times, and everything is right, but it seems to be defying the laws of physics, its a grounding problem! The higher the frequency, the weirder it becomes!
    Different deal in cable transmission. The gnd probs you are talking about can affect the ends, but we are talking about on the poles and underground. EMF will put current flow on everything out there. If it has a place to go it will follow it. What you are trying to do with shielded cable is the let it flow through the shield and that will cause cancellation. You cant stop it, so you force it to ignore itself.

    Red is pwr line, black it tel, green is grass. The pwr line creates EMF that induces onto the tel line sheath (hopefully) and if it is grounded on both ends, current will flow through the sheath into ground and back creating its own cancellation. (I might have even made the flow the right way, been a while)
    If you have 3 phase pwr and it is balanced, each line will provide cancellation. If the pwr co say unbalances the snot out of it because they dont want to spend the money to build it right to power a electric drag line, the entire town will get a rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr on their phones no matter how much mitigation you do to the tel line.

    That was back when being a phone man was fun.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,281 Senior Member
    So you're making a ground loop work for you instead of against you? The stuff I worked on - not POTS by any means - if you grounded both ends of the shield, you'd have all kinds of "fun". Berry interesting!

    I've certainly heard lots of POTS lines with the brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Now tell me why some ringtones as heard over the phone sounded like the receiver was clacking around on the hook like a cartoon telephone!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    Carry a 25 if it makes you feel good, but do not ever load it. If you load it, you may shoot it. If you shoot it, you may hit somebody, and if you hit somebody – and he finds out about it – he may be very angry with you. --Jeff Cooper
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    zorba said:
     And I can tell them how to fix 98% of it in a sentence. Bond and ground the sheath as per the old Bellcore standards checking every bond for flow with a ammeter.

    For whatever reason, I can't seem to be able to get my cursor outside the quote box - so the above is Varmintmist, below is Zorba:

    Absolutely YES! If you check a circuit - ANY kind of circuit - 10 times, and everything is right, but it seems to be defying the laws of physics, its a grounding problem! The higher the frequency, the weirder it becomes!
    Different deal in cable transmission. The gnd probs you are talking about can affect the ends, but we are talking about on the poles and underground. EMF will put current flow on everything out there. If it has a place to go it will follow it. What you are trying to do with shielded cable is the let it flow through the shield and that will cause cancellation. You cant stop it, so you force it to ignore itself.

    Red is pwr line, black it tel, green is grass. The pwr line creates EMF that induces onto the tel line sheath (hopefully) and if it is grounded on both ends, current will flow through the sheath into ground and back creating its own cancellation. (I might have even made the flow the right way, been a while)
    If you have 3 phase pwr and it is balanced, each line will provide cancellation. If the pwr co say unbalances the snot out of it because they dont want to spend the money to build it right to power a electric drag line, the entire town will get a rrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr on their phones no matter how much mitigation you do to the tel line.

    That was back when being a phone man was fun.
    Yep, I've come across a lot of the older non .083 microfarad OSP cable.  The out of spec cable changes the capacitive and series resistance values of the OSP cable.  The OSP plant specs when met when properly bonded/shielded and grounded maintains solid performance against EMF which I refer to as power influence (noise to ground).  You're correct power companies don't have any issues (usually) maintaining 80dBrnC PI with three phase power.  Two phase they have to work a tad harder, with single phase all bets are off.  Even so properly spec'd OSP cables that have good bonds/shields and grounds and preferably tied to an MGN can handle high PI on single phase power with no issues to the end user.  When MGN's aren't in use all bets are off.  Tying to a #6 ground wire going down a pole and into soil with an unknown ground field and soil resistivity is a total crud shoot.

    Lots of moving parts.  This is why I try to focus myself on fiber when I can, less moving parts and though still a headache, it's much less of one!

    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    So you're making a ground loop work for you instead of against you? The stuff I worked on - not POTS by any means - if you grounded both ends of the shield, you'd have all kinds of "fun". Berry interesting!

    I've certainly heard lots of POTS lines with the brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr. Now tell me why some ringtones as heard over the phone sounded like the receiver was clacking around on the hook like a cartoon telephone!
    The brrrrrr wasnt like this. Think of having a conversation and when the dragline kicked in the entire town got a sound like a empty 55 gallon drum rolling on a concrete floor. It was pretty cool figuring it out.
    Ringtones sound like the ring generator. You dont hear the other phone ring because you cont have a connection until after it is answered.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member


    Lots of moving parts.  This is why I try to focus myself on fiber when I can, less moving parts and though still a headache, it's much less of one!

    Until Eng Joe needs to do a fiber job and goes to Sams Discount Cable again, Fiber dept, and puts UG  12 fiber in the air that connects the two host CO's. Works great until you put more than 1310 nm on it and the temp drops under 5F at 10 pm. Then the micro cracks put a buttload of errors on and by 8A it has warmed up to 6F so there is no trouble to be found.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    No, no I dont want a self driving car. :)
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,064 Senior Member
    I've always thought of myself as warm and cuddly...to be completely honest.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,139 Senior Member
    I wish you field techs would start scrapping some equipment, sales of telecom equipment is slooooooow.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    I wish you field techs would start scrapping some equipment, sales of telecom equipment is slooooooow.
    I wish they would to, I sale and support telecom test equipment and yes it is a tad slow for my liking!
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    You guys must build good stuff, we only buy cheap junk now.Get it installed by contractors with plumbers logos on the truck 1/2 turned up then everyone calls us to fix it the next day and we dont even have a password.
    6 years.... 59.5 and I am gone.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,651 Senior Member
    Our cable (ok, in a prior life) IF it was shielded got the shields carried through any splice points and tied to earth ground at the end of the line, furthest from the main control panel. Never at each end, or each splice. That was per manufactures specs. Of course everything we installed wasn't bonded like telco stuff is bonded. Here,  If it's in a CO, and it's metal, it's bonded. HVAC duct work, file cabinets, everything.  

    As far as two phase? If you've ever actually seen it outside of the east coast in a few locations , you've found a unicorn. 
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    You guys must build good stuff, we only buy cheap junk now.Get it installed by contractors with plumbers logos on the truck 1/2 turned up then everyone calls us to fix it the next day and we dont even have a password.
    6 years.... 59.5 and I am gone.
    We make the best test equipment out there, folks know us as the T-Berd company
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    I hope you dont make the purple and grey stuff beginning with J. I might argue. 
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,139 Senior Member
    One of our biggest customers stopped buying last year cause of a merger.  They say April 1st it's supposed to pick back up, but that is April fool's day so....
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,139 Senior Member
    You guys must build good stuff, we only buy cheap junk now.Get it installed by contractors with plumbers logos on the truck 1/2 turned up then everyone calls us to fix it the next day and we dont even have a password.
    6 years.... 59.5 and I am gone.
    That will probably be about right, it will all be "virtual" by then, the networks will turn themselves up, all from a single magic box.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    edited March 15 #24
    I hope you dont make the purple and grey stuff beginning with J. I might argue. 

    Meaning J**U  Yeah that's me, which product are you using or referring to?
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    I have a ds1/ds3/PRI tester that spent most of its first 5 years in transit to repair. Mine works OK now, but it was a 25K boat anchor. Still slow to boot, and will reboot 5 times when cold before the battery starts warming up. There are two others that sit in COs (same unit, different mod) and at least one it is a roll of the dice if it is going to boot. It will come up and every led on the mod will stay lit, forever. You wont find a tech that would give up any older model for one.



    I am a fan of my 2209, (black case bw screen) but I keep my 107a handy. I carry 3 total in the truck in case I have to do extended overnight while on call or PRI work.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    You guys must build good stuff, we only buy cheap junk now.Get it installed by contractors with plumbers logos on the truck 1/2 turned up then everyone calls us to fix it the next day and we dont even have a password.
    6 years.... 59.5 and I am gone.
    That will probably be about right, it will all be "virtual" by then, the networks will turn themselves up, all from a single magic box.
    Someone has to put that magic box in. When you hire contractors that drill metal directly above fiber muxes with nothing to cover the mux, there is job security forever.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    One of our biggest customers stopped buying last year cause of a merger.  They say April 1st it's supposed to pick back up, but that is April fool's day so....
    CTL?
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,139 Senior Member
    edited March 17 #28
    Yea.

    The specs for the virtual networking are being written.  Telecoms are asking for the technology now even though there are no published specs.  They just want magic boxes with every possible interfaces available and it's supposed to be plug and play.  Nothing else but ONTs and OLTs and fiber unless it's far from the CO.

    We have been told we are becoming a software company.  We only have something like 35 dedicated hardware engineers left.  A couple hundred are doing as much software as hardware,. Something like 90 in R&D and a buttload of software only engs. Most from or in my India.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Jeff in TXJeff in TX Senior Member Posts: 1,230 Senior Member
    I have a ds1/ds3/PRI tester that spent most of its first 5 years in transit to repair. Mine works OK now, but it was a 25K boat anchor. Still slow to boot, and will reboot 5 times when cold before the battery starts warming up. There are two others that sit in COs (same unit, different mod) and at least one it is a roll of the dice if it is going to boot. It will come up and every led on the mod will stay lit, forever. You wont find a tech that would give up any older model for one.



    I am a fan of my 2209, (black case bw screen) but I keep my 107a handy. I carry 3 total in the truck in case I have to do extended overnight while on call or PRI work.
    The 107A is probably 20+ years old, original ones came out in 92 and I still see them occasionally.  The 2209 came out in 97 and the 2310 came out in 2000.  They quit making them in 07 or 08 as I recall when the 8000 came out.  I don't see many 2207/09 or 2310 units any longer, heck I can't even get code for them to update one. Anything PRI related was part of my product lines.  I helped define and write the National ISDN Q.931/933 standards when I was at Bell Core in the late 80's.  

    Not sure if you saw with the new system I sent you a PM
    Distance is not an issue, but the wind can make it interesting!

    John 3: 1-21
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    Yea.

    The specs for the virtual networking are being written.  Telecoms are asking for the technology now even though there are no published specs.  They just want magic boxes with every possible interfaces available and it's supposed to be plug and play.  Nothing else but ONTs and OLTs and fiber unless it's far from the CO.

    We have been told we are becoming a software company.  We only have something like 35 dedicated hardware engineers left.  A couple hundred are doing as much software as hardware,. Something like 90 in R&D and a buttload of software only engs. Most from or in my India.
    Unless they put in virtual plant, it is only going to cover a fraction of consumers. "far" from the CO is a concept the guys with biz degrees dont get. Its a virtually untapped market. Not a easy one to tap, but a loyal one. If the telecoms and CACO's would reach out, the first there is the winner. We proved that to our mang over and over again, but getting and retaining customers isnt fast and flashy.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,291 Senior Member
    And please DONT start making DS0 again. I have made a LOT of money on those over the last 30 years, but no one knows how to work them anymore and giving a tester a script and a button to push doesnt make it.  :)
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
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