Can POTUS "order" National Guard personnel to our Southern border?

sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior MemberPosts: 1,465 Senior Member

Since the "Border Pickett Fence" construction seems to be currently stalled. The Presidential back-up plan appears to be ordering National Guard troops to the border for the purpose of "rounding-up" drug smugglers, illegal aliens, and other criminals attempting to cross it. Last I remember Air and Army National Guard assets belong to the Governor of the State who is their Commander in Chief unless they are federalized (placed on Title 10 active duty) for a national emergency (think "Red Dawn") with Congressional approval.

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/‘all-it-takes-is-one-mistake’-worries-over-plan-to-send-national-guard-to-border/ar-AAvtKZp?li=BBnb7Kz

Replies

  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,407 Senior Member
    I think that the Guard has to be federalized unless the Gov approves.

    He could order the Coast Guard because they have authority to arrest civilians; but, their boats would be grounded.

    I believe he could have active forces do it as long as the   Posse Comitatus Act is adhered to and all the T's and
    i's are crossed and doted before the Troops are deployed.
    This message has been deleted
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 2,279 Senior Member
    Historically, yes.
    Bush and Obama did it.
    Just a show as far as I'm concerned.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,281 Senior Member
    All he has to do is federalize the guard units and the Governor is out of the picture.....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,407 Senior Member
    My knee jerk opinion is he thought use the Guard and the state would have to fund it.

    Federalize the Guard and DOD pays.
    This message has been deleted
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,342 Senior Member
    The talking heads on FOX were discussing it this morning and they say that the Guard can't be armed or perform any enforcement activity but they can be used to transport and process the people that BP officers arrest. With the Guard taking care of the processing aspect it would free up more officers to perform enforcement stuff.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,205 Senior Member
    I was going to say that nobody complained when Bush and Obama did it
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayJay Senior Member Posts: 3,190 Senior Member
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 19,953 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
    This. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 996 Senior Member
    edited April 5 #10
    Yes. As commander and chief, he has the inherit power to order troops to protect the border.

    Not that long ago, a President ordered troops into Mexico on a punitive expedition.


  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,465 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    I was going to say that nobody complained when Bush and Obama did it

    Yes they did. Adhering to the restrictions that the National Guard may only be used for observation and logistics support. Not armed and rounding-up drug smugglers and other criminals including illegal aliens. I have been there (aerial observation) and not physically able to round-up anyone. Our NG ground troops were also limited to observe and report when approved by the states Governor. I was medically retired (discharged) 29 June 2009. Perhaps things have changed since then but I doubt it.    
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,437 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
    So, since Posse Comitatus only applies to enforcing laws against US Citizens, and there has been exceptions for using troops to enforce federal law at the discretion of the president(101st Airborne integrating Little Rock Central High School).

    Couldn't we use armed NG guard troops at the border?  For the most part, they would not be enforcing law on US citizens, and if they did, it was at the direction of the president. 
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,827 Senior Member
    My main question is, how is this going to be paid for? State or federal?
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,158 Senior Member
    All of the border governors have agreed to it, except CA, so, it must either come from the defense budget, or the governors are willing to pay for it. I would guess the former.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 8,205 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    All of the border governors have agreed to it, except CA, so, it must either come from the defense budget, or the governors are willing to pay for it. I would guess the former.

    Unfortunately if it is something originated by Trump California will be against it.  If it is something good for America, it seems California will be against it.  If it does not make California's politicians richer, they will be against it.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 14,281 Senior Member
    My main question is, how is this going to be paid for? State or federal?
    Depend on whether they are federalized or not....
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,827 Senior Member
    Jayhawker said:
    Depend on whether they are federalized or not....
    That's what I thought 
    Overkill is underrated.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 6,376 Senior Member
    Sure they could and they could arrest or at least detain people. Posse Comitatis doesnt apply because these are foreign invaders, not American citizens.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 996 Senior Member
    edited April 7 #19
    Jay said:
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
    So, since Posse Comitatus only applies to enforcing laws against US Citizens, and there has been exceptions for using troops to enforce federal law at the discretion of the president(101st Airborne integrating Little Rock Central High School).

    Couldn't we use armed NG guard troops at the border?  For the most part, they would not be enforcing law on US citizens, and if they did, it was at the direction of the president. 
    Repelling foreign invaders is why we have an Army? No?
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 2,279 Senior Member
    Why do laws have to decoded, deciphered, interpreted, unscrambled, and redefined? No wonder there's a bar. Drunken lawers run the whole country.🍸
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 10,162 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
    Zee said:
    Jay said:
    Yup. It's been done before.  Nothing new here.  Just gives the media something else to go nuts over.  I've seen the guard units in the desert before.  I've driven by them a number of times.  Wave and go right by them.  Just like Fishead said, they don't do any enforcement.  Just observation, surveillance and support for the federal LE units.
    This. 
    Was the NG's presence in the past helpful or was it just for show?
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,465 Senior Member

    I witnessed much confusion regarding restrictions on utilization of Title 32 Air Force and Army National Guard personnel verses Title 10 Active Duty personnel while I was in the National Guard. I am not aware of any changes but I have been discharged for 8 years 9 months and could possibly misremember a couple of things.

    Funding: The National Guard is funded by Department of Defense. Those funds are distributed by National Guard Bureau. Deploying thousands of National Guard personnel to our Southern border will require additional DoD funding well beyond their normal 12 drill weekends, 15 days annual training, additional flight training periods, and schools. It was reported this morning President Trump signed a memorandum authorizing additional funding.

    Restrictions on Title 32 National Guard: They may be placed on full time orders by the state Governor to assist Law Enforcement (limited to Civil Disturbance (they are not affected by Posse Comitatus), Counter Drug/Border Security (surveillance/logistics only), and Emergency Services personnel with Disaster Relief, Wildfires, plus Search and Rescue. Additional requests from state agencies, federal agencies, and funeral Honor Guard/Flyover are accomplished if possible.

    Restrictions on Title 10 Active Duty/Reserves: Air Force and Army Active Duty and Reserves are prohibited from performing Civilian Law Enforcement duties without Presidential request and Congressional approval by the  Posse Comitatus Act. Navy and Marine Corps Active Duty and Reserves are not affected by the Posse Comitatus Act.

    This statement from the NYT article was (no surprise) an inexcusable error.

       In 1997, Esequiel Hernandez Jr., an 18-year-old American student, was killed by a group of United States Marines on a drug surveillance mission in Redford, Tex., while he was herding goats. Mr. Hernandez was the first American civilian to be killed by active-duty military troops since the Kent State massacre in 1970.

    The "Four Dead in Ohio" were shot and killed May 4th 1970 by Ohio Army National Guard members.

      

     

  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 23,407 Senior Member
    It has been done-----they have until next Friday to cross the border and we told then so
    This message has been deleted
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 2,279 Senior Member
    Tom Bossert when asked about payment alluded to recruitment of state governor assistance, but pretty much dodged the question.

    In his defense, this is not a tactic exclusive to Republicans or even the Trump administration.

    Depending on someone's view point its most likey a question of we can pay now or later, but we're gonna have to pay one way or the other.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,158 Senior Member
    edited April 8 #25
    An official in the Texas National Guard says the NG has been deployed continuously, to varying extents, for years, under the Governor's orders. She said the difference here is that the Feds will be paying for additional men, rather than the state. They will be armed for self defense, unless their jobs do not require it. They will still be in command of the Governor, with federal co-operation.
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,465 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    An official in the Texas National Guard says the NG has been deployed continuously, to varying extents, for years, under the Governor's orders. She said the difference here is that the Feds will be paying for additional men, rather than the state. They will be armed for self defense, unless their jobs do not require it. They will still be in command of the Governor, with federal co-operation.

    I never experienced that in Oregon since we have no international borders. I consider our Commiefornia border to be with an alternate universe. It makes sense if the Governor determines their National Guard is needed lacking a request from the federal government the additional funds required would be their responsibility.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,494 Senior Member

    For those that have not read it, or looked into the legal review of it, RAND does a good job of it.

    https://www.rand.org/content/dam/rand/pubs/monograph_reports/MR1251/MR1251.AppD.pdf

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • sgtrock21sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,465 Senior Member

    The restrictions placed on National Guard assisting US Customs and Border Patrol seem relatively unchanged from what I remember in the early 1980s.

    http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/national-guard-has-eyes-on-the-border-but-they’re-not-watching-mexico/ar-AAxikPO?li=BBnb7Kz

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