Syria

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  • TeachTeach Senior Member Posts: 18,141 Senior Member

    At one time there was an ongoing effort to steer the Afghans away from opiate poppy farming- - - - -has there been any measureable progress along that line?  Somehow, I sort of doubt it.

    Jerry


    Hide and wail in terror, Eloi- - - -We Morlocks are on the hunt!
    ASK-HOLE Someone who asks for advice and always does something opposite
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,131 Senior Member

    Centermass,  "If anything, strengthening the our presence in SWA 1990 and completely conquering Iraq at that time, would have accelerated the timeline of the AQ attacks. It would have been feeding directly into the grassroots propaganda that OBL was preaching."

    You simply cannot say that with any certainty at all. The whole "timeline" would have been altered. History would have changed. By allowing Saddam's army to retreat back into Iraq and remain a sore in our hide for the next 12 years, was a strategic blunder in the war on terror. We didn't defeat the Japs or the Germans by letting them out of the box once we had them in a box. The whole idea of Osama Bin Laden's AQ would likely have had a different outcome if the middle east saw a USA that was stalwart in defeating Islamic terror with the same ruthlessness Bin Laden showed the Russians.  Your timeline as it played out, would have had a whole new set of rules. 




    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 23,281 Senior Member

    Interestingly AQ and the Taliban are struggling with ISIS in Afghanistan. AQ and the Taliban can't afford to lose Afghanistan, it is their Narco-terrorism center of gravity. Very much in the same way the Hezbollah has turned to the Columbians. ISIS wants in on the deal and has been sluggin it out with the TB and AQ for control of the drugs. This war here has almost completely morphed into a drug war.

    Sounds to me that the U.S. needs to start spraying some of Monsanto's best on those poppy fields, and in a concentration that assures NOTHING green will survive the experience. EVERY plant gives off a different light reflection signature, both in IR and UV reflectivity, among others. Easy to find the fields and easier to hose them down with herbicides. This has been a missed opportunity for a LONG time.
    I may be a Deplorable, but at least I'm not a Liberal!!!



  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,910 Senior Member
    Sigh...

    I sure don't have the answer to this mess...

    I also don't really have a dog in this fight. I've never really been certain as to why the middle east's problems should concern us whatsoever. Granted, the group erroneously called "ISIS" needs to be stopped, but would it have even arisen if the U.S. had never become involved in the region? I don't pretend to know one way or another. Israel was a creation of the West, mainly out of guilt over the holocaust - so the 1948 invasion was more-or-less sanctioned by the allies. It sounds wrong on the surface, but again, I don't pretend to have the wisdom to draw a definitive conclusion.

    *shrug*

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,717 Senior Member
    All I know is if you can't trust Putin, who can you trust?👀
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,721 Senior Member
    Well, I guess we'll see how this plays out...
    Overkill is underrated.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 17,734 Senior Member
    Well, I guess we'll see how this plays out...
    Yep.
    Not looking forward to the fall-out from this
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,248 Senior Member
    It's a little after 8:00PM Central and fox just reported a series of explosions in Damascus. It appears that someone is attacking government in Syria.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,721 Senior Member
    It's a little after 8:00PM Central and fox just reported a series of explosions in Damascus. It appears that someone is attacking government in Syria.
    Pres. Trump had a news conference. Said it was the US, Britain, and France. 
    Overkill is underrated.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,910 Senior Member
    Pentagon briefing at 10 EDT.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • terminator012terminator012 Senior Member Posts: 3,239 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Pentagon briefing at 10 EDT.

    On Fox??

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,910 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Pentagon briefing at 10 EDT.

    On Fox??

    I'm sure - we had to watch it on the Communist News Network.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,071 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Sigh...

    I sure don't have the answer to this mess...

    I also don't really have a dog in this fight. I've never really been certain as to why the middle east's problems should concern us whatsoever. Granted, the group erroneously called "ISIS" needs to be stopped, but would it have even arisen if the U.S. had never become involved in the region? I don't pretend to know one way or another. Israel was a creation of the West, mainly out of guilt over the holocaust - so the 1948 invasion was more-or-less sanctioned by the allies. It sounds wrong on the surface, but again, I don't pretend to have the wisdom to draw a definitive conclusion.

    *shrug*

    Three words. Oil, Oil, and Oil. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 8,071 Senior Member
    Seems like the strikes were highly targeted and largely a symbolic show of force. Hopefully will not lead to any serious escalation. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,488 Senior Member

    Centermass,  "If anything, strengthening the our presence in SWA 1990 and completely conquering Iraq at that time, would have accelerated the timeline of the AQ attacks. It would have been feeding directly into the grassroots propaganda that OBL was preaching."

    You simply cannot say that with any certainty at all. The whole "timeline" would have been altered. History would have changed. By allowing Saddam's army to retreat back into Iraq and remain a sore in our hide for the next 12 years, was a strategic blunder in the war on terror. We didn't defeat the Japs or the Germans by letting them out of the box once we had them in a box. The whole idea of Osama Bin Laden's AQ would likely have had a different outcome if the middle east saw a USA that was stalwart in defeating Islamic terror with the same ruthlessness Bin Laden showed the Russians.  Your timeline as it played out, would have had a whole new set of rules. 





    Dan, there is not much I can state with absolute certainty. But, in the words of an analyst, I can state with reasonable certainty that I am correct in this. The mainline propaganda of the AQ recruiting painted the west as infidels that wanted to destroy the Islamic way of life. The west was a threat to everything Allah deemed holy. And, the west wanted to conquer the Muslim lands. Pushing Iraq out of Kuwait let us be seen as saviors willing to help the smaller allies. But, going all the way to Baghdad would have had us seen as bullies that wanted to control the region. While we would have wanted to control the region, it would have fed directly into the AQ recruiting message. And, we would have not had Saudi support for a march all the way to Baghdad. That also would have worked against us and fed into the AQ recruiting. We saw this first hand when we went against Saudi wishes and went into Iraq in '03. And, as it was, AQ was already being bank rolled by Saudi Wahabies in the late 80's and early 90's. Pushing more Saudi's across the line would have only accelerated AQ funding and resources.

    The Iraq aggression against Kuwait was not an act of Islamic terror. It was an act of a nation state conquering another nation state. Saddam was not, at any point, a player in the Greater Islamic terror network scheme(Hamas, PLO, Hezbollah, etc...). That may have been the single redeeming quality about him. So again, Going to Baghdad in '90 would have done nothing to dissuade the war on terror. And, furthering our footprint in the region would have most likely seen an earlier increase in terror activity during the 90s. We would have had to fight the Badr Corp for control of Iraq.

    And in a whole discussion, I would tell you that we didn't defeat the Germans. We stopped their military aggression, allowed the to change the rules of the game, and then sat back as they conquered Europe though the EU.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 16,910 Senior Member
    edited April 14 #47
    If we are going to play world cop, we should have marched all the way to Baghdad in 1990, by not finishing the job then meant we had to finish it later. We also should have listened to Patton in 1945. We have a history of not finishing things that need to be finished and it bites us in the butt EVERY TIME! If we didn't want to piss off the Islamists, we shouldn't have supported Israel in 1948. Bottom line: It doesn't matter now what we do, the ragheads are going to hate us anyway, so we might as well do what is best for *US*.

    Again, I have zero idea what is "best" at this point - but I am with CPJ on this: Why do we even need to get involved in somebody else's civil war? Playing world cop got us into the mess in the first place.

    Bottom line: Either finish the job we've set ourselves to, or stay the Hell out. This halfway BS has, is, and will continue to be, the problem.

    Or so it seems to me, Goddess knows I'm no expert!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    My Karma ran over your Dogma!
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,488 Senior Member
    Teach said:

    At one time there was an ongoing effort to steer the Afghans away from opiate poppy farming- - - - -has there been any measureable progress along that line?  Somehow, I sort of doubt it.

    Jerry



    No, Not at all. There is not much that will grown here. And the crops that will grow, we can't pay them to grow them because of competition against domestic crops.

    So, if we burn the fields we are taking away their only cash crop and look like the bad guys while the village starves. If we allow the crops to grow and be harvested, then we also provide viability for the Terror Networks here. Afghanistan is a no win.

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,131 Senior Member
    Centermass, you beat the bully while he's a bully and not after he has a tribe of bullies following his lead. We waited 12 years to eventually roll over Saddam like he was a bag of potato chips. Then, after doing that, we allowed an insurgency to bring the fight to us and did nothing until the so called "surge" which actually worked out...at great cost to our side. A cost that would have been avoided had we done the right thing in the first place. 

    Look how long the Russians got their noses bloodied in Afghanistan. The Taliban was no match for a true fighting force. But like every war we've fought since Korea, we sought to "punish" and not to "defeat." 

    You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm of the opinion - like General Mattis - that the enemy has a say in when the war ends. It's when they say "I quit." 

    I don't like our involvement over there. But when the towers fell, should have marked the last crusade against Islam. 
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,088 Senior Member
    Three words. Oil, Oil, and Oil. 
    OK, I'll play fer a little while................

    Yes, you are correct oil is strategically important to our national interest (and that of that region) although since we now have a president who strongly wants us to be independent from foreign oil and provide for all our own energy needs. That way we can't he held hostage or blackmailed by OPEC.

    My first deployment to Kuwait in 2001 about a month before 9/11 hit a Colonel gave us a briefing and asked if we knew why we were there...........then he held up a quart of oil and said this is why................Bubba in Mississippi with his pickup truck parked in front of his trailer doesn't want to pay 7-8 bucks a gallon for gas or anyone else either.

    'Laura Ingram said on her show last night that atrocities are being committed all over the world. In the Sudan women and children are being rounded up and burned alive in grass huts.........'

    Sadly for the victims we can't be everywhere at once and some places in the world are just more important to us than others and our national interest. That's just a fact of modern life, a reality.

    If we are to retain our status as a world superpower we have to assert ourselves and not putting up with the use of chemical weapons.  Sticking our heads in the sand and pretending everything is hunky dory and beating the drum for isolationism will only allow thugs like Assad to keep doing it.

    It has gotten very complicated with Russia and Iran involved in Syria propping up Assad and sharing a common interest with us in defeating ISIS, but they also want to eliminate all the rebel factions thrown into the mix there.

    Obammy and Pantsuit screwed the pooch there and doing next to nothing left the door wide open for Russia ,Iran and ISIS to walk in. The dead and refugees spilling out attest to that bad policy.

    Most of Europe aren't going to do much to Iran for now no matter what they do because of the sweet business deals they got in return for the Iran nuke 'Kick the can down the road' deal.

    Putin suffers grand illusions of making Russia what it was back in the height of the Cold War, but I don't see a major WW III confrontation over this strike coming from this. They are but a shell of what they once were, albeit they do posses a very significant nuclear capability.
     

     
     



      
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,112 Senior Member
    I think that we are having a hard time re-learning the lessons that world powers learned the hard way, a long time ago. Police actions by one culture against another completely different culture have no lasting effect. They simply achieve a sort of status quo that politicians can crow about to their local constituencies, while settling nothing over the long term.

    Why do we do that? We do it because the alternative to police actions is to wage wars of conquest, wherein the opposition is brought to its knees and bent to our will. Even then, it has no lasting effect unless all vestiges of opposition have been purged. Democratic governments cannot justify this to the people who have to be convinced in order to achieve and hold positions of power, within such governments. Any plan to win a war must include a plan to win the peace, and that can never be done unless all opposition is crushed in a way that leaves nothing to be rebuilt upon, by anyone who opposes their conqueror. To do this, we have to adopt the strategies of the people we oppose, and therefore corrupt the ideals that sent us to war in the first place.

    I think we all have to confront the idea that democratic style governments will always be battling against totalitarian style governments. It's as simple as good vs. evil, with each side claiming to be 'the good.' Compromises between good and evil only produce lesser evils that wear the disguise of good.

    We are doomed to the everlasting struggle, and survival is the only legitimate goal.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 12,721 Senior Member
    I miss the old "I agree/yeah that" emoticon. 'Cause I agree with what Bisley just said.
    Overkill is underrated.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,112 Senior Member
    edited April 14 #53
    I miss the old "I agree/yeah that" emoticon. 'Cause I agree with what Bisley just said.
    You may be wise beyond your years, or maybe you just read the right books, to start with.

    Personally, I arrived at this conclusion the hard way, after watching and reading for about 50 years, as world leaders made one mistake after another. Unfortunately, having finally worked it out to the point where I can express the gist of what I believe in three short paragraphs, it doesn't change anything. I still have to take sides on every issue, and I still argue the little things that really make no difference in the great scheme of things. It seems that everyone has to play the role they were assigned, by whatever life experiences they have had. It's all very confusing, and there seems to be no way to solve such a perplexing problem.

    Perhaps the lesson is that, recognizing the apparent futility of it all, we all continue to put one foot in front of the other, and pursue the everyday things that seem to make us happy. Simply prevailing may actually be the only victory to be had here.

  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,488 Senior Member
    Centermass, you beat the bully while he's a bully and not after he has a tribe of bullies following his lead. We waited 12 years to eventually roll over Saddam like he was a bag of potato chips. Then, after doing that, we allowed an insurgency to bring the fight to us and did nothing until the so called "surge" which actually worked out...at great cost to our side. A cost that would have been avoided had we done the right thing in the first place. 

    Look how long the Russians got their noses bloodied in Afghanistan. The Taliban was no match for a true fighting force. But like every war we've fought since Korea, we sought to "punish" and not to "defeat." 

    You have your opinion and I have mine. I'm of the opinion - like General Mattis - that the enemy has a say in when the war ends. It's when they say "I quit." 

    I don't like our involvement over there. But when the towers fell, should have marked the last crusade against Islam. 

    You are still confusing two different things. The actions in the Gulf War and Islamic Global Terrorism. You are right though, you have your opinion and I have mine. I'm not gonna tell you my opinion is 100% right, but I am also not telling you I spent last night in a holiday inn express. The last 15/16 years of my life have revolved around this part of the world....I have had to study it, I have been immersed in the culture, and in those years you thought we were doing much I was sitting in over watch while we swacked HVTs. It would almost be like me arguing with you over LEO operations, I would have my opinion based on everything but actually having first hand knowledge of how it actually works.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,488 Senior Member
    Chief - I don't know how far Putin is willing to push this. He has been way to calm and played by the "world" rules. The first thing he did was appeal to the UN. When the UN doesn't respond against our actions, it kinda gives Russia a green light to protect their allies and interests as they see fit. I see a proxy war coming, but I'm not sure where it will be.
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,088 Senior Member
    That whole region of the world is as messed up as Duck Soup. Trump was right, some countries are just sheety places and most over there brought it on themselves. Many could be a real "Paradise" with all the oil wealth they have.

    Rootin Tootin Putin is a dinosaur from the Cold War era seeking relevance and exerting Russia's influence where he can albeit without all the money and might as bygone days of the USSR.

    For all practical purposes Assad with Russian and Iranian help already has won the war at a great cost to the people of Syria (except for a few enclaves of Rebels). And had our help to the extent of defeating ISIS.

    I don't think Putin wants a shootin war with the United States, but he may do something outlandish to try and assert and demonstrate Russia's prowess as an ally to Assad.     

      
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,112 Senior Member
    Putin was trained by 'Cold Warriors,' and grew up playing their geopolitical games. He knows the brinkmanship game and he knows the same dirty tricks that the Soviet Union was playing throughout the glory years of the KGB. Those dirty tricks didn't do much to help the Soviet Union, but they kept the west off balance and spending a huge amount of their wealth to counter those schemes. Proxy wars in his own hemisphere are where it's at for Putin, because we have to spend billions countering moves that cost him very little, and our CIC's have to do everything under a microscope, with the opposition nipping at their heels. It's all about power for him, and manipulating us is what blows his dress up.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,088 Senior Member
    Can't trust those Commies..........we used to get SMELL'M cards to carry in our wallets back in the Cold War days in Germany. Yes they did venture out of their allowed areas in West Germany snooping around.

    http://www.usmilitariaforum.com/forums/index.php?/topic/193654-cold-war-soviet-mission-spy-card/

    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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