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Ryan bites the dust

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  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    By removing the power from political parties that are responsible for group think and mob mentality in a nation of rugged individualists, you dilute the power of those that have so much influence right now. The solution to too much money in politics is neutering the political parties.
    Think of how much money must be changing hands behind the scenes to keep the anti Trump and Gun movements going.
    Republicans turning on their own to keep attention off themself. The left, media keep yelling Trump is a crook, homophobe, racist, womanizer, russian conspirator all day every day on the so called news. That takes power and lots of money, my guess is that it comes from both sides
    You act like Trump isn't part of it. He is and has been for decades.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    edited April 2018 #63
    But let me offer you this:

    With the strength of the parties today, Trump would have had no chance being elected without embracing one or the other. In order to do that, one way or another, he had to compromise on some of his principles to be accepted. Maybe without the influence of party dogma to color his candidacy, I would have found him to be a better candidate and president.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,914 Senior Member
    Diver43 said:
    By removing the power from political parties that are responsible for group think and mob mentality in a nation of rugged individualists, you dilute the power of those that have so much influence right now. The solution to too much money in politics is neutering the political parties.
    Think of how much money must be changing hands behind the scenes to keep the anti Trump and Gun movements going.
    Republicans turning on their own to keep attention off themself. The left, media keep yelling Trump is a crook, homophobe, racist, womanizer, russian conspirator all day every day on the so called news. That takes power and lots of money, my guess is that it comes from both sides
    You act like Trump isn't part of it. He is and has been for decades.
    You miss my intent. While I have always said Trump over Clinton and the other finalists in the running, I never have thought him perfect or totally innocent. However, I have always thought of him as a smoozer of whoever was in office for business reasons and personal gains.
    What I really do not like is the way that the left and almost all media has made our President an open target. Stephen Colbert being the worst, Jimmy Kimmel not far behind and for some reason Hollywood and Athletes. 
    In almost every other country the way they mock and taunt a sitting President would result in the very least kicked off television and blackballed.
    First amendment rights? Not really, but no matter.  Sometimes, just because you can, doesn't mean you should.
    I have no doubt that since the election, more money has been spent on anti Trump propaganda, than he spent to get elected. Its all part of the plan to get a Democrat in the next election, now that is real money being spent for a party and not the people.
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    In some ways overzealous indictment of the POTUS is an indictment of us, especially so for those that voted for them. The media panders to perceived public sentiment and pines for influential power. How much do they actually get, I don't know.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,128 Senior Member
    edited April 2018 #66
    I see what you are saying now Diver. Personally, I could care less what Kimmel and Colbert have to say but the fact that they can say it assures me that we live in a reasonably free society. When you start muzzling these people, who is next? Some reality show TV star saying that the president is illegitimate because he believes in some conspiracy theory that he was born outside of the country? When will they come for us on here? Collectively, we can be some very harsh critics of those with political power.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,395 Senior Member
    If the donors to the DNC keep their wallets closed the DNC is gonna have a hard time floating a loan for a Snickers bar at the local 7-11. The donations have dried up direr than the Sahara Desert. Ol' George Soros will have to flood their coffers for them to make a showing for the midterms AND the 2020 campaign if the Dems don't start sending in those donations.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    Jermanator said:

    .....I totally agree that our founding documents do provide us with all the solutions to get our destiny under control. The biggest problem that I see is that parties have way more power than was ever allowed in those documents. I actually do not see where it calls for political parties at all. Why are our tax dollars even paying for primary elections? How did we put ourselves in a situation where political parties are now state sanctioned? I see the 1A right where people of similar beliefs should have the opportunity to form "clubs" and promote their ideas. I also disagree with Alpha that Citizens United was a bad decision. I can't seem to disagree with the premise that money (used to get out a political message) is somehow not a free speech right. Term limits? I am against them because I have seen what it has done in my state, but if that is something that voters want to do, so be it.

    I still see our biggest problem as political parties. They have become too powerful. People put too much weight on them-- so much so, that our founding documents become meaningless and are ignored. What is supposed to be a representative republic is more like a war between two rival gangs fighting a turf war. In a gang war, they are fighting over money, influence, and power. It has nothing to do with what is best for the people and is all about themselves. It doesn't have to be this way.


    Your remarks about a capitalistic country serving the needs for not just the elites, but for all the citizens rings true. Elites are going to do what elites are going to do. Like I said previously, this is not some plot, it is the nature of things and elite theory is simply an observation of that. Ultimately, the people still hold the power. Jeb! Bush plowed how much money into his campaign and fell flat on his face? Many elites were behind him? How much cash was spent on a per vote basis? Hundreds? Thousands? Then Trump (using considerably less money-- less than any other candidate I seem to recall) comes through and smokes him. So there is hope. But back on track to a capitalistic society-- with some checks and balances on power, it should serve us well. My opinion is that too much power has been concentrated with the political parties. Never before in the history of our country has political parties wielded so much power to where the masses and individual candidates that may actually do us some good are no longer a consideration. It is time to bring them into line and check their power.
    The above quoted paragraphs are the only parts of your post that I can comment on, without getting way out there in the weeds. I consider most of it to just be high-toned rhetorical theory that has more to do with psychology than politics. While it may contain elements of truth, as does most left-of-center theory, it is largely irrelevant to the nuts and bolts of life in America. It is an intellectual argument about the sanctity of intellectualism that I am not competent to argue, nor am I interested in, anyway.

    Your remarks about political parties have merit, but at this point, they become irrelevant, also, to the extent that parties are here to stay for the foreseeable future. It is the structure that we have to work in, for now, so nothing is really accomplished by ranting against them. If you can figure out a way to get politicians to vote against their own interests, great, get rid of the parties. But when that reveals itself as an impossibility, the best thing to do is reform them, or replace them. In other words, pick one and then try to clean it up, without giving away the ranch to the opposing party.

    Yes, the elites are here to stay, just as the poor are here to stay. But both will continue to have their ebbs and flows, while those in the vast middle space, in between, keep going along pretty much the same as always. This has always been a country that was designed for majority rule, and though we are presently far down into the rabbit hole of over-reacting to the screeching radicals that demand their brand of justice for every sort of minority, whether real or invented, the pendulum will eventually swing back. A new generation of producers will tire of supporting the shirkers, and cause things to change, or we will perish as a free and prosperous nation.

    I have always said that government is corrupt, by its very nature, and that even the best of them just barely work. But, it still beats the hell out of full-blown anarchy.

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