What would you do in this situation?

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Replies

  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,394 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    Yeah, but what if it's two guys with a machete and a bicycle chain whuppin' up on two guys with baseball bats and brass knucks?

    I'm just saying that these 'what would you do' scenarios don't necessarily have a pat answer.

    This wasn't a made up incident searching for a hypothetical response. This actually occurred and the op was asking about how others would react or respond.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,394 Senior Member
    You have to be careful intervening in today’s times. About 12 year ago me and my wife were coming out of a store and a man Andy woman parked next to us were arguing. Well it escalated and he started beating the shot out of her so I got involved and long story short I was put in cuffs when the law arrived. I was the one treated like a criminal if it wasn’t for other witnesss it could of turned bad for me with assault charges.

    I witnessed something similar in the past. In the seventies while I was in the military, a friend of mine and I were in a pool hall in Florida and there was this little redneck kid slapping the crap out of this girl and cussing her out. My buddy grabbed his wrist and calmly said "you shouldn't oughta be doin that" and while he was watching the guy, the girl that he just "rescued" stroked a glass beer pitcher over his head.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,504 Senior Member
    I'm sort of hesitant to take any side in a fight I didn't see start. I did, once, and almost got arrested for assisting the perp. Turned out, the defendant was doing pretty well on her own. Mike
    A retired cop I used to know tells the story of him being dressed like a druggie and having to affect an arrest on a woman during a drug buy (in the 1980s in Bakersfield, CA).  She ran, he chased her, caught her, and she started screaming "HELP".  An off duty officer was nearby, drew his gun and tried to stop the 'assault' he was witnessing.

    Took a bit to straighten things out, but it illustrates what could go bad when you intervene.

    However, it's pretty clear that it's not an undercover cop when they are wailing away with a machete and a chain
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • Cheetoh734Cheetoh734 Senior Member Posts: 714 Senior Member
    To be clear, the reason I posed this particular question was the added and, I feel, extreme extenuating circumstance of a machete being used to hack a man up on a busy street corner in the middle of rush hour traffic. I certainly wouldn't ask about a typical street fight. I am not sure what I would do to be honest.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,024 Senior Member
    I would have to get involved and as I am always armed, my gun would be out.  But then I live in a state that does not coddle criminals (with the exception of Broward County).  Here are the applicable Florida Statutes:

    The 2017 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES
    Chapter 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    View Entire Chapter
    776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—
    (1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
    (2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,024 Senior Member
    I would have to get involved and as I am always armed, my gun would be out.  But then I live in a state that does not coddle criminals (with the exception of Broward County).  Here are the applicable Florida Statutes:

    The 2017 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES
    Chapter 776
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    View Entire Chapter
    776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.
    (2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,024 Senior Member
    II would have to get involved and as I am always armed, my gun would be out.  But then I live in a state that does not coddle criminals (with the exception of Broward County).  Here are the applicable Florida Statutes:

    The 2017 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES
    Chapter 776 
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    View Entire Chapter
    776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 1,024 Senior Member
    I would have to get involved and as I am always armed, my gun would be out.  But then I live in a state that does not coddle criminals (with the exception of Broward County).  Here are the applicable Florida Statutes:

    The 2017 Florida Statutes

    Title XLVI
    CRIMES
    Chapter 776 
    JUSTIFIABLE USE OF FORCE
    View Entire Chapter
    776.012 Use or threatened use of force in defense of person.—(1) A person is justified in using or threatening to use force, except deadly force, against another when and to the extent that the person reasonably believes that such conduct is necessary to defend himself or herself or another against the other’s imminent use of unlawful force. A person who uses or threatens to use force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat before using or threatening to use such force.(2) A person is justified in using or threatening to use deadly force if he or she reasonably believes that using or threatening to use such force is necessary to prevent imminent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the imminent commission of a forcible felony. A person who uses or threatens to use deadly force in accordance with this subsection does not have a duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground if the person using or threatening to use the deadly force is not engaged in a criminal activity and is in a place where he or she has a right to be.

    776.08 Forcible felony.—“Forcible felony” means treason; murder; manslaughter; sexual battery; carjacking; home-invasion robbery; robbery; burglary; arson; kidnapping; aggravated assault; aggravated battery; aggravated stalking; aircraft piracy; unlawful throwing, placing, or discharging of a destructive device or bomb; and any other felony which involves the use or threat of physical force or violence against any individual.
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    The reasonable person...reasonable person....reasonable person...would believe that two men, one armed with a per se deadly weapon (the machete), and a de facto deadly weapon (the chain belt) who are beating on a supine person who is clearly out of the fight or in imminent and otherwise unavoidable danger of death or grave bodily harm are the aggressors.  That is what a reasonable person would believe since a reasonable person(s) engaged in righteous legal self defense would use only that force which was reasonable at the time to stop the attack.  Going on to give someone, even someone who had attacked them a gratuitous and punitive beating is not the act of a reasonable person(s) so, it is safe to believe that the dood with the machete and the dood with the chain belt are, in fact, the bad guys. 

    The law and the court recognize the right to self defense, however, those entities do not recognize the right to a coupe de grace, or punitive beating once the attacker is stopped.  In other words...they are down, done, and out of the fight or verbally surrender (abjure from the conflict) then the beating/defensive action must stop.  So then even if, and this is a stretch, the doods with the weapons were initially engaged in a legal self defense action...going as far as they went changed the equation from self defense to a deadly assault (criminal action).

    Ain't the law fun?  

    In short...the reasonable person would believe the two doods with weapons viciously beating a person who is down are, in fact, the attackers.

    Still, it's a tough call.  Are you armed?  Are you practiced enough with your defensive sidearm that you can effectively and efficiently engage a pair of armed subjects who are clearly violent and possibly charged on alcohol or other chemical substances?  Is your chosen defensive firearm actually capable of delivering fight stopping power if you even have the skill with that gun to get the hits you need on not one, but two attackers? (Are you carrying a mouse blaster as a sakkurrity banky,  or a real gun with a sufficient power and ballistic payload to successfully fight off a pair of attackers?).

    Let's face it...Bubba Tactical Dood with his 380 Taurus TCP is probably a lot better off calling 911 and hoping to God that the doods with the machete and the chain belt don't take umbrage with his huffing and puffing and start working him over when they aren't impressed by his 380 and his blustering.

    So the real question becomes:

    Do you believe your intervention will be sufficient to stop a violent and deadly crime in progress? 

    And...

    Are you willing to risk your life,  freedom and the financial well being of your family if you're wrong....and maybe even if you're right.  Is the life of a complete stranger worth YOU dying over?

    Consider victimology.

    Is the apparent victim a woman, an elder, or a child (whom there is no question we should protect)...or is the one getting their ass handed to them a fully responsible adult male who may have talked **** and is now getting hit in a fight of his own making?  If the latter is the case, then while the beating may be wrong, illegal, and possibly deadly or crippling in its injurious nature...is it your business or responsibility to intervene and risk severe consequences to your own life and well being?

    Maybe the smart move is to say "STOP!  I have called the police!  They are on the way!" and THEN if they turn to you in a manner consistent with attacking YOU, then you are unquestionably justified in acting in your own defense because a clear intent by them to do YOU harm is now in play, and this is clearly demonstrated by their previous actions in assaulting the former apparent victim.

    Think that might be the smarter move?  The more reasonable move?  The less dangerous (both physically and legally) move for you to make?


    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 39,174 Senior Member

    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • Ken_S_LaTransKen_S_LaTrans Posts: 108 Member
    cpj said:

    Awwweee....do all the words make your little brain hurt?  Do your lips get tired from moving while you try to sound them out?  My...aren't you just a clever little thing.

    The problem with snarky little jabs or memes in response to a well thought out and complete thought or explanation is that they do nothing more than demonstrate ignorance and a resistance to real information rather than the actual desire for confirmation bias on the part of the meme/snarky response poster. 




    ONLY THE INFERIOR CRY FOR EQUALITY
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 39,174 Senior Member
    edited October 1 #43
    cpj said:

    Awwweee....do all the words make your little brain hurt?  Do your lips get tired from moving while you try to sound them out?  My...aren't you just a clever little thing.

    The problem with snarky little jabs or memes in response to a well thought out and complete thought or explanation is that they do nothing more than demonstrate ignorance and a resistance to real information rather than the actual desire for confirmation bias on the part of the meme/snarky response poster. 




    That is  where you are incorrect. I have no resistance to real  Information. I have resistance to dead horses.  This topic has been beaten to death. Yet, you continue to opine. With lots  and lots and lots of words. 

    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,394 Senior Member
    cpj said:
    cpj said:

    Awwweee....do all the words make your little brain hurt?  Do your lips get tired from moving while you try to sound them out?  My...aren't you just a clever little thing.

    The problem with snarky little jabs or memes in response to a well thought out and complete thought or explanation is that they do nothing more than demonstrate ignorance and a resistance to real information rather than the actual desire for confirmation bias on the part of the meme/snarky response poster. 




    That is  where you are incorrect. I have no resistance to real  Information. I have resistance to dead horses.  This topic has been beaten to death. Yet, you continue to opine. With lots  and lots and lots of words. 


    I've gotta agree with CPJ on this. On the internet, most folks just want the cliff notes. A truly intelligent individual can convey information with a minimal amount of verbage with every word used being necessary and informative. Most folks that ramble on with a lengthy disertation just want to sound smart. Especially when they pick an old thread on a topic that has been discussed. I'm not saying that is the case here but that is how your post can be construed.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 2,474 Senior Member
    Reading the threads is like getting food?Always check the date?
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