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Trump backed us out of the Iran nuclear deal

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Replies

  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,689 Senior Member
    Uber-interesting topic, but would be hijacking the post's original theme.
    Right out of the depression, battling internal tugs-of-war with socialists and still pondering the Spanish Civil War lessons, seems like they would rather let the Nazis spill themselves towards the East (And scare the crap out of the Soviets in the process) than towards the West), and sacrificing countries already "in line" with German's politics and ambitions was fair trade, but apparently they never considered Hitler's hatred towards the French.

    Wonder what's going to happen during the weekend....
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    When one examines Neville Chamberlain or any other historical figure, context is imperative. In this case it would be impossible to exaggerate the power of the Great War's scale of horrific slaughter and economic devastation on a leaders thinking.
    '
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    I don't think that I have ever suggested that Neville Chamberlain was a coward, or stupid, although I don't think anyone would have ever accused him of being wise. I just think that he was wrong, for a variety of reasons, and that it changed the balance of power in Europe to such a great extent that Britain nearly lost their entire empire. His failing, in my opinion, was that he just didn't face the reality of what allowing the Germans to re-arm would eventually mean, preferring instead to busy himself with the domestic issues that he was somewhat more comfortable with.

    One could easily draw parallels between Chamberlain's behavior toward Germany and Obama's behavior toward Iran, and the indifference with which both Germany and Iran treated the respective 'agreements.' The main difference between them (to me) is that Chamberlain was probably attempting to buy time for his own country to re-arm, after ignoring it for too many years, due in part to war debt from the first war. On the other hand, all indications from Obama's behavior in office indicate that he intended to bow out altogether from the use of US military capability to influence the behavior of its primary adversaries.

    Both were ineffectual in their major geopolitical moves, but at least Chamberlain appeared to be trying to catch up to the realities that his country faced. Obama, however, simply intended to further weaken the USA's superpower standing, while also furthering his party's quest to make the US a banana republic.
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,689 Senior Member
    Seems like there's a place and date for the Trump/Kim meeting and that NKs have already set a date for dismantling their nuclear weapons program....sounds too good to be true and you have to be very careful with what these commies say and promise, but if everything goes as stated, wonder how hard would be for the Swiss to even nominate the current POTUS for the Noble prize. :D
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member
    edited May 2018 #66
    Antonio said:
    Seems like there's a place and date for the Trump/Kim meeting and that NKs have already set a date for dismantling their nuclear weapons program....sounds too good to be true and you have to be very careful with what these commies say and promise, but if everything goes as stated, wonder how hard would be for the Swiss to even nominate the current POTUS for the Noble prize. :D
    They are going to finish destroying their test facility, which photographic evidence suggests may have been damaged already. The real test is whether they give up their uranium enrichment factory, or any capability they may have to make plutonium. Without U-235 or plutonium, there can be no atomic bond. Then, they have to give up dirty bomb and chemical weapon capability.

    Early indications are positive, but the devil is in the details, and we can't make the mistake of giving them aid until they allow verification that they have ended the program permanently.

    As for the Nobel Prize, that has been a joke, since giving one to Yasir Arafat, Al Gore, and Barack Obama. If Trump wants it, fine, but they will try their best not to give it to him.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    The Nobel Peace Prize started off with good intentions, but like the UN turned to politically motivated self serving Crap animated emoticon
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    Alfred Bernhard Nobel invented dynamite in 1866.
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Alfred Bernhard Nobel invented dynamite in 1866.
    I've always wondered how many lives have been lost as a result of that invention. Having a "Peace prize" named after the inventor has always struck me as odd.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,669 Senior Member
    edited May 2018 #70
    Without testosterone and a pair of balls we're nothing but female sheep. I'd prefer my leaders not be gutless, like Ovomit and others. That doesn't mean I'm a warmonger, but I want our leaders to be strong enough to back those down that would be crazy enough to have one.

    And BTW, The cause of WWI was a lot more complicated than a single asassination. As Wikipedia points out, the factors were many.


    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • AntonioAntonio Senior Member Posts: 2,689 Senior Member
    Trust me, 3rld. world dictators and their minions only understand the language of the force; any other means like "talks", "sanctions", and so are a plain show of weakness to them and a way of buying them more time.
    They're not better than a home-invader thief that have taken possession and control of someone else house and becomes a hazard to the neighborhood; just see what's happening in Venezuela, Nicaragua an others....those folks will only be removed by force since they've learned how to deal institutionally with the control of power spheres inside their countries and abroad!

    .....and a world war was going to happen anyway at the 1st. 1/3rd. of the past century in such state of things; European old world intermingled power structures were seating on top of multiple powder kegs fueled by geopolitical changes, new ideologies and technological developments. The assassination just was the spark that precipitated everything.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Antonio said:
    .....I expect that this post will get met with at least a handful of Nevel Chamberlain references by some of the most macho among us....
    Regarding this, it's true that in a desperate bid for peace in Europe poor Neville was ready to sign anything Herr Hitler could hand him, despite all proofs that "annexing" the smaller neighbors wasn't enough for the Nazis, but if memory doesn't fails me, at the same time his government was approving a discrete rearmament program that would eventually pay off discouraging the Germans from invading the isles after taking over France...seems like Chamberlain wasn't as naive as popular history usually portraits him.
    Oh Bull POOP! Alpha, he was as naive as Jimmy Carter. If he would have had real balls he would have stood up to Hitler instead of letting him off the hook. Chamberlain got off the plane in London waving that worthless paper around like it was the Holy Grail while in truth he shoulda wiped his butt with it.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    Alfred Bernhard Nobel invented dynamite in 1866.
    I've always wondered how many lives have been lost as a result of that invention. Having a "Peace prize" named after the inventor has always struck me as odd.
    Ain't it!
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Antonio said:
    Trust me, 3rld. world dictators and their minions only understand the language of the force; any other means like "talks", "sanctions", and so are a plain show of weakness to them and a way of buying them more time.
    They're not better than a home-invader thief that have taken possession and control of someone else house and becomes a hazard to the neighborhood; just see what's happening in Venezuela, Nicaragua an others....those folks will only be removed by force since they've learned how to deal institutionally with the control of power spheres inside their countries and abroad!

    .....and a world war was going to happen anyway at the 1st. 1/3rd. of the past century in such state of things; European old world intermingled power structures were seating on top of multiple powder kegs fueled by geopolitical changes, new ideologies and technological developments. The assassination just was the spark that precipitated everything.
    Yep the assassination was just the excuse to throw the switch.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    bisley said:
    early,

    I'm not arguing for unfettered capitalism - just against socialism. The only reason I went at it that way is because I am being told that I'm always wrong because I am looking through the wrong lens.

    I don't have the right lens, so I'm just trying to contribute to the topic in the best way I can, albeit through the wrong lens.
    'taint the wrong lenz. What you say is very clear and to the point.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    This whole deal Stank like a pogy boat. Some of yall may know what that is, but in case you don't they're Menhaden Trawlers and you can smell them before you see them. Anyway, you get the idea. Obummer was so wanting a deal he could hang on his trophy wall that he was willing to sell the country down the road to get it, and that's what he did. The money is gone but Trump at least stopped the carnage by getting out of the deal.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    When one examines Neville Chamberlain or any other historical figure, context is imperative. In this case it would be impossible to exaggerate the power of the Great War's scale of horrific slaughter and economic devastation on a leaders thinking.
    '

    This is probably one of the more astute comments I have read in the last three pages. If anyone has any doubts about the costliness and catastrophic effect WWI had on the world, they simply need to read the literature that was inspired by that era. 

    However, I will say that Chamberlain was naive in the hopes of keeping the peace on the continent. I can't imagine how the British did not know that taking the southern lands back was just a stepping stone. Though, Hitler did come to the table with good cause for it. The persecution of the German speakers in that area was under full swing. They were getting from the Czechs what the gypsies and Jews were getting from the Germans.

    The one thing that continually amazes me in discussions of the interwar period and German re-armament, is that no one points a finger at the US. The infamous Dawes Plan, devised to keep Germany from failing, allowed Germany to float currency and re-invest their nationally generated capital back into their new military industrial complex. This is best illustrated when looking at the GDP growth between Germany, France, and GB. in 1925 Germany had a GDP of 45Mil, GB was at 43.7, and France was at 36.2. That's a staggering difference. The second order effect of this was seen in coming out of the Great Depression. even though the US withdrew its loans, the German banks collapsed, they still had built enough of an industrial complex to start at a slow jog...instead of crawl. By the time the war started in 1938, Germany had surged to having a GDP of 77.1million. While France was still struggling and producing a GDP of 39.5mil. Even Britain was not a full rebound by that point, and only had a GDP of 56.4mil. Chamberlain, seeing the economic viability of Germany in 1938, perhaps believed they would not risk another economic collapse with war. 

    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,748 Senior Member
    edited May 2018 #78
    Post war periods change peoples thought processes. The scale of the great war rained gold stars on the entire European population. The depression was literally global. People were desperate to avoid more. Look at events like Orson Welles War of the Worlds broadcast and the ensuing panic it created. This was possible because the air was static enough with tension, you could cut it with a knife. The intensity in Europe must have been off the scale. Its easy to listen to voices like Churchill's today. How easy back then?
  • centermass556centermass556 Senior Member Posts: 3,534 Senior Member
    Agreed. 
    "To have really lived, you must have almost died. To those who have fought for it, freedom has a flavor the protected will never know."
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