NASA head changes mind on Climate Change

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  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,992 Senior Member
    edited July 11 #122
    At least 20% of all oil produced is used in other products, not fuels (everything from plastics to medication).  Not all fuels are burned equally.  I hate bullet point presentations without substance...

    BTW you’ll be happy to know both my wife and my car rate 8 out of 10 (10 being best) on the scale for greenhouse emissions at the tailpipe according to fuel economy.gov.  How does your car rate?????
    I ride an electric train with a few hundred other people for 90% of my transportation needs. 
    Got any efficiency numbers for that?  The electric trains in New York are filthy power hogs.  I work from home and telecommute.  A tank of gas in my highly efficient car can last me a month.  We now do just about all our shopping except for perishables off Amazon and clothing off other online sites.  

    So how about your car?  Airline travel? 

    Yes I’m the one leaving the planet worst off...
    Depending on how you calculate it it's about half to 1/3 the emissions of the average car. That's for the average passenger. However since the system exists and is going to run regardless of if I'm on it or not, my incremental emissions are zero.

    But yes I still drive to the range and go on camping trips and travel by air on occasion. The biggest contribution I have made is in choosing not to procreate. Every child you have multiplies your impact. Yes we need another generation of people, but nothing says it needs to be as large as the current one. Slowing population growth through the widespread global availability of birth control is probably the biggest thing we can possibly do to change the trajectory.

    The equation is actually simple. People x per capita emissions. If you address one without the other you don't get anywhere. For the past 200+ years both have been growing exponentially. As someone who I know knows a bit about how exponential functions work, you understand the impact they can have over long time-frames. This process has produced a lot of good over the years, but also presents a lot of risks long term.

    Another common organism that exhibits exponential growth is yeast. When making beer yeast will multiply exponentially until one of two conditions are met. They consume all the available sugars and die, or they produce so much ethanol that the system becomes toxic and they die. We'd like to think we're smarter than yeast in a fermenter, but this far we haven't done a great job of demonstrating it. Short of figuring out a way to colonize other planets we're stuck in a finite system. There are is a finite amount of stored energy within the system that cannot ever be replaced (we are currently burning through about a million years of stored fossil fuels a year) and a roughly constant flow of energy from the sun. 

    For the first 200k years **** sapiens like all other species survived only on the energy they could harvest through natural systems from the sun. Eventually and a lot sooner than most people anticipate (those pesky exponential functions again) we're going to have to get back to that. Luckily we now have more technologies available to us to harvest the few truly renewable sources. 

    The other side of the coin, much like the yeast is waste question. Again we live on a finite planet and are producing exponentially increasing waste stream, one of which is ghg emissions which impact the heat balance of the planet. 

    Again like the yeast in the fermenter nature has ways of balancing things out (drought, famine, disease, war), but it's rarely pleasant for the species being balanced. I'd very much prefer for humans to not have to go through that process. 

    I believe we are capable of making a smooth transition back to a sustainable way of life without having to return to the dark ages. That we can avoid both a massive crash due to resource depletion and at least most of the worst consequences of continued unchecked pollution. But with exponential growth the challenge becomes harder every year we procrastinate. We are actually already making a lot of good progress despite virtually no leadership and in many cases active opposition by goverment, but we've also got a long long way to go.

    PS this exact issue manifests itself in many other ways that are not insignificant. Fresh water sources, poorly managed fisheries, agriculture etc. Luckily we have smart scientists looking at all these issues and more and trying to anticipate problems before they become disasters and develop solutions that allow society to continue to function at a high level in most cases. One big challenge for later in the century will be fertilizer. Phosphorous is essential for modern farming and it's also a non-renewable resource with only a handful of known commercial mines in the world. Runnoff is also responsible for major eutrophication problems. We will need technologies that close the phosphorous cycle more than we already do. That said I'm hopeful that as this issue becomes more widely recognized we will develop the solutions required to prevent it from becoming a global disaster.
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,147 Senior Member
    I decided to go with some green packaging for my daughter's cookie business and my food truck. They are all biodegradable plastics derived from corn and sugar cane. My main ride is a little Chevy Aveo. My houses are all well insulated, have 95% efficiency or higher furnaces in them and a couple have 98% efficient tankless water heaters that run on relatively clean natural gas. My camp in northern Michigan is completely off grid and runs mostly on solar. I will be building my distillery with solar panels. All my lights are LED.

    Know why? I am cheap. I really do appreciate the work these hippies have been doing to save the planet. Keep it coming and when the tech is ready enough to where I save money by adopting it, I will be all over it. If they want to save the planet, they need to stop preaching, and keep inventing and innovating-- that is the way it is going to work. Get us some good tech that is affordable, and the market will embrace it.

    A Tesla pickup that is a torque monster? I am listening....

    Amen to the bold. Your also doing much more than most of the preachers. Kudo's to you!
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,288 Senior Member
    I decided to go with some green packaging for my daughter's cookie business and my food truck. They are all biodegradable plastics derived from corn and sugar cane. My main ride is a little Chevy Aveo. My houses are all well insulated, have 95% efficiency or higher furnaces in them and a couple have 98% efficient tankless water heaters that run on relatively clean natural gas. My camp in northern Michigan is completely off grid and runs mostly on solar. I will be building my distillery with solar panels. All my lights are LED.

    Know why? I am cheap. I really do appreciate the work these hippies have been doing to save the planet. Keep it coming and when the tech is ready enough to where I save money by adopting it, I will be all over it. If they want to save the planet, they need to stop preaching, and keep inventing and innovating-- that is the way it is going to work. Get us some good tech that is affordable, and the market will embrace it.

    A Tesla pickup that is a torque monster? I am listening....
    This!!!  My electric bill is less than half of my neighbors AND I have electric heat and AC.  Every bulb in my house is LED and all my appliances are new and highly efficient, the drier has a sensor that stops the SECOND the clothes are dry.  Not ONE watt wasted.  You see I’m cheap too, and as you mentioned I prefer to let markets lead me to better more eco friendly tech living.  My son bought a Prius not because he’s some sort of Hippie or liberal.  It’s huge inside, it’s full of techie toys and conveniences and he saves a lot of money on gas.  

    I dont need some eco Nazi telling me how to live, or the government choosing how I have to “help the planet” by taking my money.  And I still get it done more planet friendly than most of the sign carrying protesting activist monkeys that look down on me...
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,288 Senior Member
    Oh and that electric train system exists (and it’s disinginous to zero it because it’s running anyway) because the government that you love uses our tax dollars propping up a system of assisted living for union guys driving 1800’s technology.  The free market would have killed those years ago and there would have been an earlier incentive to develop self-driven fully automated pods that would transport folks way more efficiently than those old ass trains you praise.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    These are actually pretty cool. They use plant based plastics plus they are the same price or cheaper than the regular stuff. Plus it is good marketing when you are trying to squeeze an extra buck or two out of hipsters.

  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 421 Member
    Y’all should research how long that life could sustain for if the Sun were to stop burning tomorrow. You’d be surprised. Even if we are ruining the Earth, our kids grandkids, kids probably wouldn’t even be affected. Who cares.
  • cpjcpj Senior Member Posts: 37,658 Senior Member
    edited July 11 #128
    I with Alpha on reducing the population.  Too damn many people in the world.  I’d say most folks these days are not like the Duggar family, and don’t have many kids. Side note, someone should tell Mrs Duggar that it’s a vagina, not a clown car. 
    "I'm here for the guns, hunting, and skirt wearing men."
    Zee
  • alphasigmookiealphasigmookie Senior Member Posts: 7,992 Senior Member
    Oh and that electric train system exists (and it’s disinginous to zero it because it’s running anyway) because the government that you love uses our tax dollars propping up a system of assisted living for union guys driving 1800’s technology.  The free market would have killed those years ago and there would have been an earlier incentive to develop self-driven fully automated pods that would transport folks way more efficiently than those old ass trains you praise.
    You'd be surprised at the massive positive economic externalities effective subway systems generate. The cost of homes and condos within a mile of a metro station are significantly higher. A 2 br condo within half a mile of a metro station anywhere in the DC metro will fetch 700-800k. The same condo a fee miles from a metro will be maybe $500k if that. That doesn't even factor in all the exonimec development and tax revenues are generated. 

    A quick search found one study that said that while only 4% of all land was within 1/2 mile of a station 28% of all property value was in that area. I'm not going to dig for more detailed numbers but it's safe to say when you factor in increased property values effective public transit systems pay for themselves many times over from their positive externalities. 

    Btw lots of research on how municipalities can better capitalize on such things when developing new infrastructure. 
    "Finding out that you have run out of toilet paper is a good example of lack of preparation, buying 10 years worth is silly"
    -DoctorWho
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Moderator Posts: 26,288 Senior Member
    So where is all that targeted infrastructure going to go when we wake up and work is fully virtual?  More than 50% of my old company worked from home and we were constantly looking to increase that.  I have not commuted to an office work location in about 12 years.  Not about to start anytime soon.
    "Attack rapidly, ruthlessly, viciously, without rest, however tired and hungry you may be, the enemy will be more tired, more hungry. Keep punching." General George S. Patton
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,553 Senior Member
    edited July 12 #131
    You'd be surprised at the massive positive economic externalities effective subway systems generate. The cost of homes and condos within a mile of a metro station are significantly higher. A 2 br condo within half a mile of a metro station anywhere in the DC metro will fetch 700-800k. The same condo a fee miles from a metro will be maybe $500k if that. That doesn't even factor in all the exonimec development and tax revenues are generated. 



    Btw lots of research on how municipalities can better capitalize on such things when developing new infrastructure. 
    I'm not in a position to know what the actual benefit of increased property values is, but I do know that most rail systems need hundreds of millions of dollars to prop up their financial capability. They never charge a fare that represents the actual cost of operation, so they all lose money. It seems to me that middle-class working taxpayers are the ones that end up making real estate profits for the people that can afford those 700K to 800K condos. I don't see the real value of public transit except for small groups of people......nearby small businesses, riders and the people with the expensive condos. Everyone else is subsidizing it. In nearby Orlando we have a relatively new commuter rail. I know for a fact that ridership is about a third of what they need to sustain profitability, even with the subsidies. It was called a useless boondoggle by most conservatives in this area 5 or 6 years ago before it was completed, and still is in my opinion. Now they are talking about running a bullet train from Tampa to Orlando and Orlando to Miami. I have no idea what ridership would be, but I might take the train once to see what it's like to ride in it, but I don't commute anywhere and I only might take the train to Miami for a lark once. I just don't think these things can be profitable without govt. subsidies.
    I HAVE HATED COMMUNISTS EVEN BEFORE THEY CHANGED THEIR NAME TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,553 Senior Member
    Y’all should research how long that life could sustain for if the Sun were to stop burning tomorrow. You’d be surprised. Even if we are ruining the Earth, our kids grandkids, kids probably wouldn’t even be affected. Who cares.
    Without actually researching, a very short period in my opinion. All plants would die without light from the sun. The earths surface would probably freeze solid in a matter of days, give or take, and humans shortly after.
    I HAVE HATED COMMUNISTS EVEN BEFORE THEY CHANGED THEIR NAME TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 1,262 Senior Member
    Transit is either mass or singular. Singular equals congestion resulting in extreme life quality degradation. I've seen it, close up and personal. Mass is supposed relieve the congestion. Whether it does or not can be debated, but if it does, the benefits are universal for all. Everyone has a vested interest in efficient infrastructure. Its needed desperately. The question left is shall it be for the common welfare or for profit or maybe both?
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    edited July 12 #134
    My green recycling operation. We crush up the old sidewalks to use as a base for the new ones. It saves us from having to use sand. Do you know why? Because I am cheap. Yay Earth!
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    Nothing more needs to be said about this photo.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,700 Senior Member
    Nothing more needs to be said about this photo.
    Do your knuckles drag on the ground if you hang your arm out the window. Your big enough to Fred Flintstone that go-cart :smiley:
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,147 Senior Member
    edited July 12 #137
    cpj said:
    I with Alpha on reducing the population.  Too damn many people in the world.  I’d say most folks these days are not like the Duggar family, and don’t have many kids. Side note, someone should tell Mrs Duggar that it’s a vagina, not a clown car. 

    Wasn't his idea, it was Mike suggesting the best way to achieve Alpha's goal.

    Not sure why Alpha has ignored my questions (and others) about his usage though? I guess they just don't suit his narrative. I have all of the links saved for my percentages, all by his style of sites.


  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    Ban alcohol again. The birth rate would plummet.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Do your knuckles drag on the ground if you hang your arm out the window. Your big enough to Fred Flintstone that go-cart :smiley:
    I was looking for a half way cheap used car to run around in. There was this Saturn... my head hit the ceiling unless I leaned the seat way back-- and I tend to sit more upright than most people. I got into that car, my head cleared, I had plenty of leg room...SOLD!!! I love that little car.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,700 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Do your knuckles drag on the ground if you hang your arm out the window. Your big enough to Fred Flintstone that go-cart :smiley:
    I was looking for a half way cheap used car to run around in. There was this Saturn... my head hit the ceiling unless I leaned the seat way back-- and I tend to sit more upright than most people. I got into that car, my head cleared, I had plenty of leg room...SOLD!!! I love that little car.
    Ha! My BIL is 6'4" and tortured himself with a Saturn for several years. I drove some Hyundai when I was in St. Louis a couple weeks ago and I fit ok in that, but i am only 6', sucks sitting that low though, I like my trucks.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,622 Senior Member
    Y’all should research how long that life could sustain for if the Sun were to stop burning tomorrow. You’d be surprised. Even if we are ruining the Earth, our kids grandkids, kids probably wouldn’t even be affected. Who cares.
    Without actually researching, a very short period in my opinion. All plants would die without light from the sun. The earths surface would probably freeze solid in a matter of days, give or take, and humans shortly after.
    Internal heat inside the Earth generated from tidal forces of Sun and Moon, and the big honkin' nuclear reactor underground would slow down the freeze a little, but the Earth would freeze over solid. It has before and nobody was around to see it. Sorta drastic climate change. Photosynthesis would cease for sure, and all surface plants would die before the freeze, though. Stuff in the ocean that gets their food and energy from the 'black smoker' mini mineral volcanoes would live a good while longer, until they got too cold and died.
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    Dude... you can whip in and out of traffic. The car is nice and light so that 1.6 liter engine is actually pretty peppy. You can get into all the close parking spots. Trying to park that big Duramax in downtown Detroit was a chore. Not with this car. Oh... and did I say it was cheap? I laugh my ass off every time I fill up the tank with $20. It didn't cost much at the dealer either and maintaining it is much cheaper than the Duramax. It has like 10 air bags so if I do wreck it, it is pretty safe. Part of why I bought it was for my kids to drive around.

    First thing when I bought it, I put a trailer hitch on it as well. Not something I would drive to Tennessee with, but for picking up a few things here and there it works pretty well.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,622 Senior Member
    With people crammed in cities like sardines in a can, we're one world pandemic away from a major population adjustment. The Spanish Flu is a good example of that in recent times(1918-1920). It infected 500 million people (about 1/3 of world population at the time)  and killed somewhere between 50 million to 100 million. The U.S., Russia (old U.S.S.R.), and China, among others, did a LOT of germ warfare experimentation during the last century. They aren't 'supposed to have' that stuff now, but I wouldn't bet the farm on it. If one or more of those super bugs got loose, it wouldn't be good for the human race.

    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 9,700 Senior Member
    edited July 12 #144
    Dude... you can whip in and out of traffic. The car is nice and light so that 1.6 liter engine is actually pretty peppy. You can get into all the close parking spots. Trying to park that big Duramax in downtown Detroit was a chore. Not with this car. Oh... and did I say it was cheap? I laugh my ass off every time I fill up the tank with $20. It didn't cost much at the dealer either and maintaining it is much cheaper than the Duramax. It has like 10 air bags so if I do wreck it, it is pretty safe. Part of why I bought it was for my kids to drive around.

    First thing when I bought it, I put a trailer hitch on it as well. Not something I would drive to Tennessee with, but for picking up a few things here and there it works pretty well.
    I had a good run of Mazdas, a B2000, a 323, and a 626, I have enjoyed stick shifts and high revving 4 bangers in the past. I have 6 people in my family, pretty sure all the boys will be north of 6',  I need people haulers and some trunk/box space, I am not getting a van, but, I have a couple more kids geting their DL's soon, I will keep this car in mind. 
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 14,045 Senior Member
    My brother has a Chevy Sprint, which is the smallest GM car out there (the Aveo-- now called the Spark is the 2nd smallest) and my big butt fits in there pretty good too. He bought his new and got the stick shift. He gets 40mpg most of the time.
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,001 Senior Member
    edited July 12 #146
    .
  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 707 Senior Member
    When I was younger and more flexible I drove smaller vehicles (I still have my '06 Mercury Mariner as a back-up vehicle) but as I get older and less flexible getting in and out of smaller vehicles is literally a pain.  I am 6'4" and my 17 year old son is now wearing my clothes, so this is now my daily driver:

    In my former lives I was both a bus driver and truck driver so maneuvering the "battleship" (as one of my customers calls it) around town is not much of a challenge for me.....and it sure is comfy.  :D  On the down side, trips to the gas station can be painful, but not nearly as much as if it were an older model.  This one has a mid-size V-8 with cylinder deactivation technology so it gets significantly better gas mileage than the same model from 15-20 years ago.  My beloved GMC Canyon crew cab Z71 5.3L (hence my screen name, reused from another forum) is a hoot to drive, but it was getting too small for me.  That one is now going to my 20 year old daughter to take back to school with her in Wisconsin.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 6,553 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    Do your knuckles drag on the ground if you hang your arm out the window. Your big enough to Fred Flintstone that go-cart :smiley:
    I was looking for a half way cheap used car to run around in. There was this Saturn... my head hit the ceiling unless I leaned the seat way back-- and I tend to sit more upright than most people. I got into that car, my head cleared, I had plenty of leg room...SOLD!!! I love that little car.
    My wife's car is a '99 Saturn. I'm 6'2" 290 lbs and I barely fit into the damn thing. Thank goodness I hardly ever have to ride in it, except if I have to take my truck for service and need a ride home. Thank goodness for big pick-up trucks. They're the only vehicles I can fit in comfortably, and I'm willing to pay the extra cost that they produce. Not only is it comfortable, I use it to haul my landscaping or motorcycle trailers around with it.
    I HAVE HATED COMMUNISTS EVEN BEFORE THEY CHANGED THEIR NAME TO LIBERALS AND PROGRESSIVES
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 22,622 Senior Member
    My problem with most cars is a 'one way' problem. I can get in them just fine; it's the getting out that plays hob with me. My knees in my chest trying to extricate myself isn't gonna happen; those knee joints doth protest too much. Especially if I've been sitting in one of those low to the floorpan 'bucket seats'. I need a freakin' 'sky hook' to get out of my nephew's Mustang! :D
    If a Liberal throws a hand grenade at you, pick it up, pull the pin, and throw it back at them.



  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 31,419 Senior Member
    The 2000 Saturn I had ran good fer 14 years with some repairs. It was too low to the ground and hard to get in and outta, but a dang good car.

    My Outback is much mo easy to get in and out and gets over 30 MPH on the highway, usually 32.

    Of course now I'm on R&R (Retired & R_E_T_A_R_D_E_D) I don't even have 30K on it yet. The Saturn had over 200,000 miles on it.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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