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Justified shoot or not........Stand Your Ground FL Law

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  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    Jeeper said:
    "Attacking"?  So he yelled at the guy's wife.   So what?   You would physically attack someone for exercising their 1st amendment rights?  You are an idiot.  The guy who makes the first physical contact is the aggressor.... and whether or not deadly force is justified, is guilty of forcing the confrontation into something more serious than a yelling match.
    Same reasoning as a person cussing up a storm in public around young kids. That sure ain’t right, but at the same time I always have a gun on me and think waaaay ahead of time before I open my mouth to anybody because I consider what could happen or escalate. And the last thing I want is the inconvenience of having to fill out paperwork after shooting somebody and then wondering if I’ll be charged because it all could have been avoided if I’d just kept my damn mouth shut and bit my tongue. The guy in the story had a history of being an asshole and I kinda wish he woulda at least got beaten half to death by the guy that shoved him before he was killed in front of his wife and kid because Johnny small dick wanted to play parking lot police.

    1. Yes, attacking. A heated argument over a parking space brought on by a "parking ninja" with my wife and small children in the car qualifies. You may not be that kind of man, but I am. I will protect my own. I guess i'm just old school that way. Don't know anything about you, so I won't call you names. Maybe you don't know/remember the good old days of fisticuffs. When you did something inappropriate and took an ass whoopin' without having to pull a gun. The deceased was not armed and did not make an aggressive move after the shove. The shooter was looking to do exactly what he did....IMHO...You also need to learn exactly what the 1st amendment means.

    2. As do I!




  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Same reasoning as a person cussing up a storm in public around young kids. That sure ain’t right, but at the same time I always have a gun on me and think waaaay ahead of time before I open my mouth to anybody because I consider what could happen or escalate. And the last thing I want is the inconvenience of having to fill out paperwork after shooting somebody and then wondering if I’ll be charged because it all could have been avoided if I’d just kept my damn mouth shut and bit my tongue. The guy in the story had a history of being an asshole and I kinda wish he woulda at least got beaten half to death by the guy that shoved him before he was killed in front of his wife and kid because Johnny small dick wanted to play parking lot police.
    THIS we are totally in agreement on.
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    I guess a calm reasonable attempt at de-escalation is out of the question.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #95
    I guess a calm reasonable attempt at de-escalation is out of the question.

    Not necessarily. But I believe the shooter was neither calm nor reasonable in this situation. I could be completely wrong just going by a video and his past dealings, but don't think I am. Not sure how getting shoved to the ground is reason to shoot someone dead when there was no follow-up aggression. He was looking for a fight, as he had several times, and got embarrassed. I guess he got even?

    Either way, If I see a man aggressively confronting my wife and children for NOTHING, I am going to react. No different in my mind than defending my home or property. Anyone can call me an idiot all they like. I won't change or apologize. That's who I am. 

    Apparently I am not as trigger happy as some here. Thankfully. 
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    Most if not all confrontation type disputes seem to elicit reactions from those involved according to timing. Our best or perhaps worst decisions are made according to an unpredictable frame of mind in an instant beyond our choosing.

    Hopefully a careful examination of traggedies like this will cause a pause or cautious millisecond before we feel compelled to act.
  • FFLshooterFFLshooter Member Posts: 1,057 Senior Member
    Michakav said:
    I guess a calm reasonable attempt at de-escalation is out of the question.

    Not necessarily. But I believe the shooter was neither calm nor reasonable in this situation. I could be completely wrong just going by a video and his past dealings, but don't think I am. Not sure how getting shoved to the ground is reason to shoot someone dead when there was no follow-up aggression. He was looking for a fight, as he had several times, and got embarrassed. I guess he got even?

    Either way, If I see a man aggressively confronting my wife and children for NOTHING, I am going to react. No different in my mind than defending my home or property. Anyone can call me an idiot all they like. I won't change or apologize. That's who I am. 

    Apparently I am not as trigger happy as some here. Thankfully. 
    I think you read my response up above incorrectly. I was saying this. The guy that shot the guy was a **** and started it knowing damn well that it COULD escalate to something more which is a big no no to me as a CCW holder. I too would defend my wife. I also wouldn’t play parking lot police while concealed carrying no more than I would flip a person the bird on the road for cutting me off. To me, that’s just asking for trouble.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #98
    Michakav said:
    I guess a calm reasonable attempt at de-escalation is out of the question.

    Not necessarily. But I believe the shooter was neither calm nor reasonable in this situation. I could be completely wrong just going by a video and his past dealings, but don't think I am. Not sure how getting shoved to the ground is reason to shoot someone dead when there was no follow-up aggression. He was looking for a fight, as he had several times, and got embarrassed. I guess he got even?

    Either way, If I see a man aggressively confronting my wife and children for NOTHING, I am going to react. No different in my mind than defending my home or property. Anyone can call me an idiot all they like. I won't change or apologize. That's who I am. 

    Apparently I am not as trigger happy as some here. Thankfully. 
    I think you read my response up above incorrectly. I was saying this. The guy that shot the guy was a **** and started it knowing damn well that it COULD escalate to something more which is a big no no to me as a CCW holder. I too would defend my wife. I also wouldn’t play parking lot police while concealed carrying no more than I would flip a person the bird on the road for cutting me off. To me, that’s just asking for trouble.

    I was replying to early. I agree 100% with your response. Nevermind. You are also responding to early. Damn these multi-quotes!
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    We really don't know what if anything the guy started.  He could have been very polite to the woman and she was the one who escalated it and the victim only saw her shouting and upset and reacted to that.  She could have stayed in the car, locked the doors and ignored him.  Unless I missed some witness statements, we don't know.  Still should not have shot the guy IMO.  But since he did, he should have at least double tapped him.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    After seeing video of that parking lot and much news coverage with a handful of protesters in the parking lot, I have one question.

    Why is the handicapped parking space off to the side of and not directly by the stores front door? Just curious.


    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    BAMAAK said:
    We really don't know what if anything the guy started.  He could have been very polite to the woman and she was the one who escalated it and the victim only saw her shouting and upset and reacted to that.  She could have stayed in the car, locked the doors and ignored him.  Unless I missed some witness statements, we don't know.  Still should not have shot the guy IMO.  But since he did, he should have at least double tapped him.

    The store owner stated that he had a history of assaulting people in the lot. I have a feeling he was not being polite.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    Michakav said:
    BAMAAK said:
    We really don't know what if anything the guy started.  He could have been very polite to the woman and she was the one who escalated it and the victim only saw her shouting and upset and reacted to that.  She could have stayed in the car, locked the doors and ignored him.  Unless I missed some witness statements, we don't know.  Still should not have shot the guy IMO.  But since he did, he should have at least double tapped him.

    The store owner stated that he had a history of assaulting people in the lot. I have a feeling he was not being polite.
    History has no bearing.  The victim was a felon also, does that factor in?  No.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #103
    BAMAAK said:

    History has no bearing.  The victim was a felon also, does that factor in?  No.

    History, or patterns of behavior, can certainly have a bearing on the assumption of current behavior. You stated he could have been polite to which I responded he has a history of assaultive behavior in that very parking lot. There is a higher probability that he exhibited the same type behavior than not. It's human nature. May or may not matter in court for a case like this, but it does outside. Just my opinion of course. I wasn't there, but can draw logical theories and conclusions when presented with video and past behavior. Seemed to be at least a couple witnesses. We will see what they say.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,664 Senior Member
    I see people misusing handicapped spaces all the time...and while I may grumble to myself about the inconsiderate bastards it has never occurred to me to confront the inconsiderate bastards. I figure karma will get them sooner or later.
    I guess minding your own fing business is passe....

    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,142 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #105
    I followed this for a few days and three pages and I'm tired of reading every post. So here goes. 

    Richard Cranium had a prior history of confrontation over the HC parking spots in this parking lot. Its not Richards place to police the parking lot. Richard was looking for more trouble that day. Everybody has access to a camera even on a flip phone. If you want to make a point there is a better way than a parking lot confrontation, take a picture and call parking enforcement to do their job. Use the laws of citizen arrest if your that passionate about it. Sit in front of a magistrate and explain why this inconsiderate person should get a $300-$500 fine. Richard Cranium was looking for a confrontation and found it, now a man is dead. Damn near sounds premeditated if only sub-consciously.


    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Well like the police say and it always works for them is, only a split second to make a decision.  Had that been a cop forcibly pushed to the ground like that we would not be having this conversation.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • JeeperJeeper Senior Member Posts: 2,954 Senior Member
    Lets face it... This was a Perfect Storm of three idiots.  The confronting person, the "victim's" wife and the "victim".  All THREE of whom were idiots.  Any ONE of whom could have prevented this from happening.

    Had she not parked in that space, or gotten out of the car, there would have been no incident.  Had the first idiot not confronted them there would have been no incident.  And had the so-called victim not rushed out and attacked the guy there would have been no incident.

    I'm willing to bet had any one of US been any one of those three people none of this would have ever happened.
    Wielding the Hammer of Thor first requires you to lift and carry the Hammer of Thor. - Bigslug
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    Jeeper said:
    Lets face it... This was a Perfect Storm of three idiots.  The confronting person, the "victim's" wife and the "victim".  All THREE of whom were idiots.  Any ONE of whom could have prevented this from happening.

    Had she not parked in that space, or gotten out of the car, there would have been no incident.  Had the first idiot not confronted them there would have been no incident.  And had the so-called victim not rushed out and attacked the guy there would have been no incident.

    I'm willing to bet had any one of US been any one of those three people none of this would have ever happened.

    Have to agree on that point! I know I talked tough about defending my wife in that scenario, which I would. But I/we don't know exactly how it went down. I never professed to. Just making somewhat informed unbiased guesses. Apparently my old school way of thinking has gone out the window nowadays. Obviously you need to assume everyone has a gun, whether a good guy or bad. Gone are the days of fisticuffs, stronger wins, whether right or wrong. Breaks my Irish heart. Guess I will just keep carrying and mind my own darn business.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    Jeeper said:
    Lets face it... This was a Perfect Storm of three idiots.  The confronting person, the "victim's" wife and the "victim".  All THREE of whom were idiots.  Any ONE of whom could have prevented this from happening.

    Had she not parked in that space, or gotten out of the car, there would have been no incident.  Had the first idiot not confronted them there would have been no incident.  And had the so-called victim not rushed out and attacked the guy there would have been no incident.

    I'm willing to bet had any one of US been any one of those three people none of this would have ever happened.
    Exactly.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    I judge some.  We have a women at work with a hang up tag, not a plate that parks in a handicap spot every day.  Then she proceeds to power walk around the lake twice a day.  I see young people using their parents or grandparents tag all the time.  Pisses me off.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,749 Senior Member
    On the handicap tag issue, I drove my uncle to the drug store when visiting in upstate NY.  He was 89 years old and jn his last month having brain cancer.  Even then he got around fairly well and did not look his age. After getting him back in the car and walking back to the drivers side, a lady made a comment about me not looking like I need a handicap parking spot. I started to say something like: lady mind your own business, but instead: smiled and said your right, i dont, but my 89 years old uncle in the passenger seat as of this year does.   We both wished each other a good day and went our way. My uncle asked what she wanted and I told him we both just said hi. He snickered thinking we were flirting.
    I am one of those people that gives a dirty look when a fit person parks in one of those blue spaces, have even made comments. Not sure if I was right or wrong, but it never resulted in me being violently shoved to the ground or me feeling like I needed to shoot someone, Thankfully
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    Even here in the partially rural areas Im visiting, some people are in a big rush and suffer from big rudeness.

    It can be a trial of restraint when crossing paths with such people. Regardless of the temptation to offer surly resistance to the narcissistically inclined, the reoccurring question of consequence seems to be is it worth it?
  • NNNN Senior Member Posts: 25,000 Senior Member
    I park in such places and just do not care if people don't like it.

    I don't on Base by the Commissary/PX because there are some real crippled up
    Vets that need the slot more than me. 
  • das68das68 Posts: 662 Senior Member

    Some can, some do not want to.


  • horselipshorselips Senior Member Posts: 3,628 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #116
    Maybe a good thing or two will come out as a result of this incident. (1) A violent douchebag who likes to push people around and knock them to the ground has assumed room temperature and won't be attacking any more people over a raised voice. (2) The arrogant, egotistical, self-important lady who parks at her pleasure, the law notwithstanding, has hopefully learned a lesson in compliance. (3) Whatever happens or doesn't happen to the shooter, he had to be pretty shaken up by the whole event and if he doesn't end up in prison, will probably realize how close he may have come to that, and to avoid being seriously injured by the next guy he aggravates, tone down his behavior in the future. (4) As this story is well publicized and gets around, other potential transgressors will think twice before parking where they ought not - some idiot might just shoot them for doing that. (5) Tempers flare, some folks are on a hair trigger and unencumbered by the thought process, may act or react violently, and that's a good reason to carry a concealed weapon. Hopefully another million or two Floridians will come to that conclusion and start packing. 
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,385 Senior Member
    Jay said:
    When the burden of proof in a criminal case is beyond a shadow of a doubt and you have SYG, a good defense attorney could create enough doubt that making murder stick could be difficult. Probably why the AG didn’t want to prosecute. Manslaughter could have been the way to go. But, from what I read, they already said no charges. If civil is possible, that guy is screwed and his life is gone. Different burden of proof, different ballgame. 
    He'll be charged and I think convicted of manslaughter.  The standard of proof is not "beyond a shadow of a doubt" but "beyond a reasonable doubt."  His past behavior will figure into the case.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,877 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #118
    A "history" is a highly subjective thing and usually not admissible in court where the judge (if it gets there) will insist that the incident be viewed under it's own merit.

    Pretty sure his past behavior will be admissible if this goes to court. Also pretty sure he would be convicted even if not. There was ZERO follow-up aggression after the shove to warrant the shooters actions. He was looking for a fight for a long time and finally saw his chance. 

    Not the type of concealed carrier I would put my support behind. 
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,203 Senior Member
    Big Chief said:
    After seeing video of that parking lot and much news coverage with a handful of protesters in the parking lot, I have one question.

    Why is the handicapped parking space off to the side of and not directly by the stores front door? Just curious.


    The location of the ramp up to the sidewalk-- or should I say the practicality of constructing a wheelchair ramp determined the location of the handicap spot. It doesn't necessarily have to be the closest spot, but at least one spot (depending on lot size-- there may only be one spot. A little convenience store like that probably only has one). Anyway, at least one spot needs room for a wheelchair lift and a ramp to get up to the sidewalk. At a small property with a small parking lot like a convenience store would have, it may have been the only practical area to put that ramp.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,812 Senior Member
    My total experience with 'handicapped' parking issues has taught me that the people who really need it usually end up fending for themselves, while the same old people who gobble up every entitlement offered by the federal government continue to overwhelm almost every attempt to help folks who really need help.

    The 400 lb. diabetics clog the aisles with electric carts, in any Walmart, while the 80 year old blue-haired ladies, with walkers, try to navigate around them while pushing a shopping cart. If they get to park within sight of a handicapped spot, and find an electric cart without a dead battery, they have had a lucky day.
  • Big ChiefBig Chief Senior Member Posts: 32,995 Senior Member
    edited July 2018 #121
    I don't think they have to have a Handicap to use them electric carts.
    Not up to me to question those who ride them, I learnt to stay outta their way. Most look like they would have difficulty walking around without, some look too young, but who am I to decide or know what recent surgery or aliment they have from a casual observation.

    I just thank God I still have my mobility and can drive, walk and get around on my own good as I can. Many can't.  

     
    It's only true if it's on this forum where opinions are facts and facts are opinions
    Words of wisdom from Big Chief: Flush twice, it's a long way to the Mess Hall
    I'd rather have my sister work in a whorehouse than own another Taurus!
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