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Tipping Point?

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  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    It is basically using socialism to eliminate socialism along with the corporate "capitalists" that leach off the existing system.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    Socialism that "encourages productive engagement with the capitalist economy" is a contradiction in terms. You can't  have it both ways - even if one trusts the Gov't to be oh-so-benign AND to get it right; which of course, neither is possible.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    In other words, "don't trust the gov't a microsecond longer than you must."
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #65
    cpj said:
    Soooooo....we give out a universal wage. Say it’s the cash value of all government “assistance” put together. 
    You really, REALLY think the mopes getting that assistance are gonna go for that? **** no they won’t. “Ummm, we want food stamps and phones and stuff. This ain’t enough money. We won’t have no money if we gots to pay for our own food!”


    Hey now... I am entitled to my own imagination. I would send them to a church/mosque/synagogue/Kingdom Hall food pantry and let those organizations serve the public and maybe earn their tax exemptions for a change-- I am not too hip on their free ride either. Make them work for it.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Socialism that "encourages productive engagement with the capitalist economy" is a contradiction in terms. You can't  have it both ways - even if one trusts the Gov't to be oh-so-benign AND to get it right; which of course, neither is possible.
     
    Thank you!
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #68
    zorba said:
    Socialism that "encourages productive engagement with the capitalist economy" is a contradiction in terms. You can't  have it both ways - even if one trusts the Gov't to be oh-so-benign AND to get it right; which of course, neither is possible.
    So our socialized state, local, and federal roads discourage productive engagement with a capitalist economy? Is that what you are saying Zorba? Can you please explain? I must be pretty dense, because I thought it encouraged capitalist ventures. They will come in handy when my crew makes a 180 mile round trip tomorrow. I plan to make some money off it. I am expecting a check in the mail from one of my clients too. It is coming via our constitutionally mandated, socialized postal system. I am sure it has helped Jeff Bezos engage with the capitalist economy. I am just guessing he has made a couple bucks.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    promote the general welfare?
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    At the very least, the interface is hugely wasteful. That whole oh-so-benevolent government thing.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #71
    I can agree with that. Government screws up everything, or if they get it right, it cost 10x more than it had to.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    Jerm, we may be interpreting Zorba's statement differently. I look at the first part of his statement about socialism encouraging productive engagement with a capitalist economy where I see socialism encouraging compliance with the government.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    That flew right over my head Steve. I don't understand what you are saying. Can you elaborate a bit to help me get a grasp? What are you meaning by compliance with the government?
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • FisheadgibFisheadgib Senior Member Posts: 5,797 Senior Member
    That flew right over my head Steve. I don't understand what you are saying. Can you elaborate a bit to help me get a grasp? What are you meaning by compliance with the government?

    I see socialist governments encouraging compliance with policies and standards set by the government and productive engagement with a capitalist economy being secondary.
    snake284 wrote: »
    For my point of view, cpj is a lot like me
    .
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    Or even a distant third, methinks...
    One thing is pretty obvious from this discussion - a MAJOR difference between Liberals and Libertarians/Conservatives is trust in governments. But we all knew that already.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Oh, and the other thing needed to reverse the oligarchy is that we need to get money out of politics. Make all campaigns publicly funded and forbid organizations that do not represent citizens, with their permission, to lobby elected officials. It would take nothing less than a constitutional amendment to get that done.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Let me explain the safety net this way... People with nothing to lose are dangerous. There will always be an underclass in every society. To be very blunt, they need to be kept fat and happy. I think Alpha is trying to say that while we still need to keep them fat and happy, maybe not as fat and happy as they have been enjoying-- maybe where some of them will get off their asses and do something productive-- take out the trash, mow the lawn.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #78
    Zorba you're a smart guy. You can think a bit more broadly. Basically every country in the world right now has some mix of capitalism and socialism (at least socialism as defined by most on this forum, which is basically anything the government does except defense) including the US. As an advanced nation we need social safety net programs. We can do those things much better. 
    Yes, and I see all the misery and damage Socialism has, and is, causing - esp. in the much vaunted Sweden that all the Socialists love to hold forth as a shining example.
    I got news for you, the situation in Sweden ain't all that and a bag of chips - I have relatives there.
    I utterly reject Socialism for the failure that it is. Again, it takes a government to make crap like this work - however poorly. Governments are evil and MUST be kept as small as possible.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #79
    We're already redistributing our wealth to the tune of 35+%.. That doesn't even factor in our stagnant wages.

    Edit.
    The government ain't about to be kept as small as possibe on our current course.
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    Not that I'd advocate for it, but even Fascism beats Socialism. And that's pretty bad!
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • bisleybisley Senior Member Posts: 10,813 Senior Member
    Let me explain the safety net this way... People with nothing to lose are dangerous. There will always be an underclass in every society. To be very blunt, they need to be kept fat and happy. I think Alpha is trying to say that while we still need to keep them fat and happy, maybe not as fat and happy as they have been enjoying-- maybe where some of them will get off their asses and do something productive-- take out the trash, mow the lawn.
    Keeping the so-called 'underclass' fat and happy is the recipe for perpetuating it. I agree that it will always be with us, but with a goal of trying to eliminate it, it will at least be smaller. An emphasis on stimulating small business is the best thing to solve the lack of jobs and low pay.

    Many of our greatest achievers came from very 'mean' beginnings, thanks to their determination to rise above that sort of life. Sure, some of our worst criminals also began that way, but we are pretty good at catching them, and we are capable of doing much better in the rehabilitation and punishment areas of crime control Returning the nuts and bolts of government to the local level can accomplish that better than the monolithic bureaucracies that pretend to be taking care of it, now.

    I'm 100% in favor of a society that rescues physically or mentally handicapped people from living a miserable existence, but even they need incentives to do whatever they are capable of, to feel like a productive citizen. For the others that simply work the system, spanning generations, we owe them only the opportunity to work for a living wage, and educational opportunities for improving their work opportunities. What we owe them, and every other citizen, is a government that requires a fair tax from every wage earner, and a balanced budget that can pay for national necessities, and not much else.

    Our slide into socialism/elitism, that first became noticeable in the early '60's, has finally upset the brand of capitalism that built the country. We were on the verge of having a fair system for everyone, within another generation or two, but over-compensation for past injustices has simply created different injustices, without solving the old ones.
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Here is a bit more to inject into the UBI discussion. Apparently, Karl Marx wasn't a big fan of it, while several well known Republicans gave it serious consideration...

    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #83
    bisley said:
    Keeping the so-called 'underclass' fat and happy is the recipe for perpetuating it. I agree that it will always be with us, but with a goal of trying to eliminate it, it will at least be smaller. An emphasis on stimulating small business is the best thing to solve the lack of jobs and low pay.
    That is the thing... both liberals and conservatives have forever thought they can "solve" the underclass out of existence. They mean well, but keep trying by throwing one (costly) inevitably failing government program after another at it. They have helped some, but won't help most because it is a part of human nature that can't be solved. There always has been and will always be an underclass that is a drag on society. While it goes completely against my sense of fairness, I have taken the pragmatic view that keeping them fat and happy to the least extent possible will minimize the costs to society. 
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #84
    And in your socialist utopia of unicorns and glittering rainbows you forget one key element that will instantly vanish with your mythical 'universal basic income' - personal insentive to better oneself. It's utterly laughable that you actually think this would benefit a small business owner. Your drivel is always the same - "what *THEY* should do" or, "what *OTHERS* should do." So here's my question for you. How much of a paycut are YOU willing to sacrifice to restribute YOUR wealth? 50%? 60%, 70%? Is it fair to little Joey, who's been fired from his last 5 jobs, that you make more than him? Perhaps we should cut your wages so that the playing field is equal and that Little Joey earns the exact same as you. 
    If you don't want to listen to Alpha... pinko, commie, socialist, unicorn fart breathing, Milton Friedman, advocated for one in his book, Capitalism and Freedom.

    ...but I am sure only liberals and socialists listened to him. Nothing to learn from that guy.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    Who and where are these underclass people I keep reading about. I dont see them here.

    How much of our paid out taxes support these hard to find folks?

    From what I see on this thread, there ain't no way the guaranteed income plan could ever replace the current social safety net programs. The idea could be spun into this fictitious fat and happy underclass leeching the rest of us dry, and make it as popular as a poorly maintained outhouse on a hot summer day.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member
    Alpha mentioned labor representation on the board that runs a company. I highly suspect that he's never been a member in one of the national labor unions or he would know the result of that. Take GM and U.S. automakers in general. The combined labor unions at these plants demanded higher wages and benefits every year, nearly, and used the power of the strike to coerce the company to comply with their demands. They didn't get it all most of the time, but they most of it. The automakers passed on these labor costs to the consumer in higher auto prices. If anyone remembers the Arab oil embargo in the early '70s then they remember auto sales tanking, and the government added insult to injury with new stringent and unobtainable emissions standards.

    Anyone remember the GM fiasco when they tried to use the GM 350 c.i.d. gas engine as a platform for a diesel engine? Anyone? That came back and bit GM big time.

    The companies were turning out far fewer cars due to slump in sales that lasted for years, but they were stuck with paying workers the same rate for reduced output and sales profit. There were some HUGE layoffs of those auto workers. And THAT was the beginning of robots taking over larger and larger segments of the assembly process; more workers laid off. And it continues even now at a faster rate as the robotic machines evolve.

    The unions shot themselves in both feet with their ever increasing demands for more and bigger slice of the pie. And then the pie went rancid with the upheaval in the auto industry from decreased sales, government edicts on emissions at a faster rate (CAFE), and the foreign auto companies supplying autos that were better, more fuel efficient, and just entirely better built. Honda, Toyota, Datsun (Nissan), and others supplied what the U.S. companies either didn't want to make, or made VERY poorly. Ford Pinto and Chevy Chevette, and the Chrysler K-Car are examples of some of the worst built, and there are many others. They couldn't compete with the foreign made and higher quality cars.
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    edited December 2018 #87
    tennmike said:
    Anyone remember the GM fiasco when they tried to use the GM 350 c.i.d. gas engine as a platform for a diesel engine? Anyone? That came back and bit GM big time.
    I most certainly do.
    GM set back diesels in North America by decades with that mess. When the engine wasn't blowing head gaskets or breaking connecting rods, it was actually a pretty darn good motor - I have an acquaintance who had one and really liked it. Until it blew its gasket, that is.
    GM didn't do diesels any favors with their 1st couple of attempts at pickup truck engines either, and the occasional poorly engineered car diesel from time-to-time. Ford partnered with Navistar, Dodge partnered with Cummins, if GM had partnered with Cat, they would have had something.
    Its my understanding that they finally got it right with the new Duramax like Jerm has. Its too darn quiet for my taste, but who cares?
    But every time diesel cars start making headway here, somebody screws it up. GM several times, and now VW. So we're stuck with inefficient gasoline engines while the rest of the world runs on diesel. 2010 was supposed to be "the year of the Japanese diesel" - but that never happened. Honda, the only Japanese company that did NOT have a presence in the worldwide diesel market, had been quietly buying up diesel technology - and if there's any company on the planet that knows emissions, it's Honda.
    But that never happened either, and I'm not sure why.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    Alpha... you just won the prize for longest quote string ever. It took me a good 2 hours to scroll down that to find what you wrote new. My hat is off to you my friend!
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member
    Like everything else, its a balance. Unions have destroyed entire industries. They also have done a lot of good - esp. in the 1st half or so of the last century.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • JermanatorJermanator Senior Member Posts: 16,244 Senior Member
    bisley said:

    I'm 100% in favor of a society that rescues physically or mentally handicapped people from living a miserable existence, but even they need incentives to do whatever they are capable of, to feel like a productive citizen.
    You brought up a good point Bisley. One good thing about a universal basic income is that for the disabled, they don't have to lose their dignity. They have a base income just like everyone else, and can choose to live off that (barely, but humanely with some dignity) or they can enter the work force in some capacity.

    I used to have a neighbor on disability. He was a total wreck physically but he enjoyed woodworking. He had a nice shop set up in his garage and when he was having good days, would work out there when he could. He did beautiful work and was a true craftsman. When he had not so good days/weeks, he didn't work out in the shop and did what he could to get by. There was no way in hell this guy could hold a job and was genuinely disabled-- he wasn't cheating the system in that aspect. He was a very kind man, a good Christian active in his church, and would help you out any way he could (when he could).

    His biggest issue was being caught working in his shop. If he was caught working out there, he was afraid that he would lose his disability payments. Any work he did for pay had to be cash and on the sly. So we had an otherwise good man that could be considered a "cheat" working in the underground economy for a few extra bucks here and there to make his life better. UBI would eliminate that.

    He was robbed the dignity of his work.
    Reason obeys itself; and ignorance submits to whatever is dictated to it.
    -Thomas Paine
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,928 Senior Member
    The failures of the American auto industry were a result of unions and corporate management milking the cow dry without building a barn or planting feed. 

    Sustainability is still an illusive concept in today's world.

    Get too many zeroes strung together under one roof and they start leaking out the bottom and get carted off.

    Smaller entities would be better.
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