Questions on internet purchases and the "gun show loophole"

JerryBobCo · February 2019

I keep hearing the talking heads talking about being able to purchase firearms over the internet without having to go through a background check. I don't understand this, as I have purchased several guns over the internet, and every one had to be shipped from a FFL holder to an FFL holder, who then ran a background check on me. All of these purchases were in Colorado, so perhaps it's a state law.

I even had a firearm I already owned shipped from Colorado to Texas, and had to have the gun sent to a FFL holder in Texas, who had to run a check.

If a non-FFL holder sells a gun to another non-FFL holder via an internet purchase, and a background check is not done on the purchaser, is that legal? Is it a state by state issue? Can someone explain this to me.

I also wonder about the so called "gun show loophole". In Colorado, ANY purchase made at a gun show has to go through a background check. If a non-FFL holder sells a gun, the purchaser must find a FFL holder at the show to run the check. That's the law. FWIW, usually the seller already has an arrangement with an FFL holder who will run the check, and the check is performed over the phone by the Colorado Bureau of Investigation.

What states do not have this or a similar law.

The point I'm getting at is whether or not the media and some lawmakers are crying wolf over this, or if it's legit.

earlyagain · February 2019

Sometimes people walk the shows packing an arm thats been inspected and plastic tied against discharge in order to sell it. If not sold to a vendor but to another private party attending, no check?

Two people arrange a sale on line. Conduct it in person. No check?

These examples are indicative of creative license to manufacture alternative reality for political notoriety and sensationalist infotainment. With the very unfortunate consequences of eroding the constitutional rights of law abiding citizens. They in all likelihood have absolutely no preventative effect on crime.

Make_My_Day · February 2019

Not one of these so-called "no background check" purchases has ever, to my knowledge, been tied to a mass shooting. The Democraps just want to increase gun laws incrementally until there are zero personal firearms available.

tennmike · February 2019

There is no way, other than what Early outlined, to sell a firearm over the internet without a background check. I haven't been to a gun show in years here in TN, but it was common when I did for someone to carry a firearm that had been zip tied open into the show, and either trade it in to a dealer for something else (and background check done), or to sell to a private party (no background check done). And in TN, private sales are quite common and go through no background check. Personally, if I don't know someone VERY WELL then I will not deal with them, either buying or selling. I'm a great believer in the CYA Principle, and want to thoroughly minimize my exposure to buying a stolen firearm.

CaliFFL · February 2019

As mentioned above, two people can make contact via the internet, newspaper, gun show, or LGS bulletin board, etc and conduct a face to face business transaction, if legal in the state. Most of my purchases are private, as to keep my transactions from being federalized.

If you are concerned about a stolen gun, there's https://www.hotgunz.com/
The firearm may be stolen and not in the database, but it shows you gave some effort researching. Also ask for a receipt with the seller's name and address. Another due diligence action.

coolgunguy · March 2019

The press to kill the "gun show loophole" is hype, and not much more. Since private sales are legal and require no background check, it doesn't matter where they happen, or how they're conducted, as long as the parties involved are satisfied. At a business parking lot, gun show, in your driveway... all the same. If a purchase is made from an FFL holder - no matter WHERE the sale takes place, INCLUDING gun shows or the internet - a background check MUST be performed, with the only exceptions being where a license (such as a CCL) serves as a "pre" background check... IOW, the buyer has already passed a background check.

ETA: Of course, I am not a BATFEIEIO lawyer, nor have I stayed at a Holiday Inn Express lately, so grain of salt and all that...

JerryBobCo · March 2019

coolgunguy said:

The press to kill the "gun show loophole" is hype, and not much more. Since private sales are legal and require no background check, it doesn't matter where they happen, or how they're conducted, as long as the parties involved are satisfied. At a business parking lot, gun show, in your driveway... all the same. If a purchase is made from an FFL holder - no matter WHERE the sale takes place, INCLUDING gun shows or the internet - a background check MUST be performed, with the only exceptions being where a license (such as a CCL) serves as a "pre" background check... IOW, the buyer has already passed a background check.

I know for a fact that not all states, such as Colorado and Texas, permit a CCL to be used in place of a background check. I have a CCL issued by the state of Colorado, but still had to have a background check done when I purchased a gun from a gun shop. Same for when I had my own firearm shipped to me from Colorado to Texas.

Jermanator · March 2019

Right. And the only thing I can see happening if they close this "gun show loophole" is that the cost of background checks are going to go up-- since it gives FFL holders a captive market for all buying/selling transactions.

Jermanator · March 2019

Some places around here are charging $50 to do a transfer-- for 5 minutes of paperwork! $20-$25 seems reasonable to me but I fear the $50 FFL transfer (or more) will become the norm. That is essentially a 10% tax on a $500 firearm. $50 AR lowers become $100 lowers.

mitdr774 · March 2019

Couple years ago I was quoted $150 for a transfer. I did not do the transfer, instead my buyer had to jump through all the BS hoops his city put up to get a purchase permit. If FFLs know that every transaction has to pass through a dealer for a check, and there are no caps on the cost for the transfer, it would be a safe bet that transfer fees are going to go up a lot.

tennmike · March 2019

Outlawing private sales between individuals is the biggest joke out there in Congressional nitwit land. There is NO NATIONAL GUN OWNERSHIP DATABASE with serial numbers of firearms tied to an individual. So private sales will continue unabated in states that don't have de facto registration. How the devil can something be regulated when there is no way to know who has what?

JerryBobCo · March 2019

tennmike said:

Outlawing private sales between individuals is the biggest joke out there in Congressional nitwit land. There is NO NATIONAL GUN OWNERSHIP DATABASE with serial numbers of firearms tied to an individual. So private sales will continue unabated in states that don't have de facto registration. How the devil can something be regulated when there is no way to know who has what?

I wonder about this. Sometimes I watch the investigation ID cop shows that are based on real police investigations. Invariably, a wizened veteran cop will say something like we traced the serial number of a firearm to a specific person. I wonder how they do that if the background records are not supposed to be used like that, or even kept????

10canyon53 · March 2019

The law varies by state. Here is a link to the relevant Florida state statutes:

http://www.leg.state.fl.us/statutes/index.cfm?mode=View Statutes&SubMenu=1&App_mode=Display_Statute&Search_String=790.335&URL=0700-0799/0790/Sections/0790.335.html

tennmike · March 2019

alphasigmookie said:

JerryBobCo said:

tennmike said:

Outlawing private sales between individuals is the biggest joke out there in Congressional nitwit land. There is NO NATIONAL GUN OWNERSHIP DATABASE with serial numbers of firearms tied to an individual. So private sales will continue unabated in states that don't have de facto registration. How the devil can something be regulated when there is no way to know who has what?

I wonder about this. Sometimes I watch the investigation ID cop shows that are based on real police investigations. Invariably, a wizened veteran cop will say something like we traced the serial number of a firearm to a specific person. I wonder how they do that if the background records are not supposed to be used like that, or even kept????

Every firearm is at least originally sold to an individual who had to fill out an ATF form. Start with that person, ask what happened to the gun, who they sold to etc. Then follow the trail. Requires leg work but can be done. Obviously not in all cases. Requiring background checks would fill the holes in the data and could be done all by computer. Not sure where you heard data weren't supposed to be used that way. I thought it always had. Open to be edjumicated on the subject if my impression is wrong.

Here's the most massive clue to the puzzle. Before 1968 GCA, there was no such thing as a Form 4473. Millions of guns out there with NO PAPERWORK on them. After that, those forms remained with the dealer until the dealer went out of business. To trace a firearm like described, the manufacturer would have to be contacted to see where it was shipped (most likely to a distributor). The distributor would have to search their records for where it was shipped, and then query the dealer to look in the bound book and Form 4473s to see to whom it was sold. And then go to the original purchaser and see if they still had it or sold it to someone. And here's where you go down the rabbit hole and never emerge. It could have been traded to a licensed dealer at a gun show for another firearm. And if that firearm traded for was used, then the original search starts again. And if the original purchaser didn't keep the sales receipt and doesn't remember the name of the dealer/gun shop represented at the gun show, then it's game over. Same if it was sold to an individual.

earlyagain · March 2019

According to what I've seen on some a them true crime shows, there's homicide detectives that are real blood hounds. They'll chase them guns down to interviewing folks that supposedly had possesion according to other interviews. Of course not all HD's are as dedicated, but some thankfully have a real powerful conscious.

tennmike · March 2019

earlyagain said:

According to what I've seen on some a them true crime shows, there's homicide detectives that are real blood hounds. They'll chase them guns down to interviewing folks that supposedly had possesion according to other interviews. Of course not all HD's are as dedicated, but some thankfully have a real powerful conscious.

"I ain't seen nothin'; I ain't heard nothin', I don't know nothin'. Hell, I don't even SUSPECT nothin'."

zorba · March 2019

tennmike said:
"I ain't seen nothin'; I ain't heard nothin', I don't know nothin'. Hell, I don't even SUSPECT nothin'."

tennmike · March 2019

alphasigmookie said:

I would imagine for the most part most law abiding gun owners would try to be as helpful as possible if it was found that a firearm they once owned was used to commit a crime.

I could tell you a few stories about that, but I don't feel like typing out that mess. Suffice it to say that if the initial contact from police with a person who had previously owned the firearm degenerates early into the cops making accusations and threats, cooperation generally ceases quite suddenly.

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