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• zorba Senior Member Posts: 23,844 Senior Member

  March 2019 #2

  DCS, CPS, whatever they're called - are agents of Satan as far as I'm concerned.
  

  -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
  
  "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
  

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• bisley Senior Member Posts: 10,798 Senior Member

  March 2019 #3

  Anyone who has raised children probably has gone through periods where they questioned the judgement of doctors, or more likely, their employees. When you call a doctor 'on-call' line, after office hours, you rarely get to speak to your own doctor, or you maybe even get a rude LVN, whose answer to everything is 'take the child to the emergency room.' This is a one-size-fits-all solution that covers all liability. If the fever goes past 102-104, and Tylenol or whatever does not stop the rise, I would most definitely be headed to the emergency room. In this case, the article only says the temperature was above 100, so it is entirely possible that the parents were on top of the case, and would have done the right thing, if necessary.

  
  

  I would never make a judgement on such a case, without knowing all the facts. If the parents were suspect, due to known negligence, I would probably be in favor of 'rescuing' the child. I say 'probably,' because you just never know, these days, if the people who make such  judgements are actually reasonable and intelligent enough to be let loose on the unsuspecting public - there are lot's of 'busybodies' out there.
  

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  March 2019 #4

  alphasigmookie said:

  I feel like this is a tough case and a bit more nuanced than our headline reads. I guess it comes down to how much right parents have to endanger the lives of their own children. 
  
  As for the police, it seems like they followed all proper procedures and attempted all other means to communicate with the parents before breaking down the door. Sounds like a case of anti-vaxers vs. DCS. 

  Officers pointing guns forced their way into the family’s home in the middle of the night last month after the Arizona Department of Child Safety called police for a welfare check on a child with a 100 degree-plus fever and no vaccinations.

  The parents had ignored a doctor’s recommendation to take their 2-year-old to the hospital, saying their son’s fever had decreased.

  Funny you'd mention anti-vaxxers...I figured they told the Dr "no thanks" and he/she involved the police because they were ignoring the establishment's (Pharma's) rules.  

  A 100° fever and the parents said it had decreased...not a reason to call DCS. 

  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• earlyagain Posts: 6,798 Senior Member

  March 2019 #5

  This in my opinion is a good 
  representative example of an over grown bureaucracy. DCS is likely very similar to agencies across the country. Such bureaucracies breed abuse, misuse, and faceless arbitrary injustice imposed with impunity.
  
  When I married my now ex-wife I saw the kind gentle woman. I didn't completely see until sometime much later a person who's mind don't always work quite right, in many different complexed ways. To this day both descriptions still fit her. One day she was visited by child welfare well I was at work. They were sent by her ex- husband to check on their children/my step children. She had aquired a doll intentionally made to look real and was pregnant with our now 14yro son. Her children had put that doll in their future siblings crib. The child welfare worker who is at turned out also had a mind somewhat compromised, told my at the time wife that she was crazy, not really married, not really pregnant, and worse. A short time later during the untangling process of this visit from our uninvited helpers, we found out our vistor's mental compromises had been discovered, and her employment with child welfare terminated. In spite on my ex-wife's mental compromises, she remains to this day a kind and gentle person, but one that could fall victim to the above described more easily than others.
  
  My point being, these big arbitrary bureaucracies are inherently faulty. On the other hand there seems for sure to be a need for something that does the work they're tasked with.
  
  The SWAT intrusion??? It was using a bull dozer to pull a dandy lion. People should be held accountable for it, period.

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• CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,828 Senior Member

  March 2019 edited March 2019 #6

  alphasigmookie said:

  CaliFFL said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  I feel like this is a tough case and a bit more nuanced than our headline reads. I guess it comes down to how much right parents have to endanger the lives of their own children. 
  
  As for the police, it seems like they followed all proper procedures and attempted all other means to communicate with the parents before breaking down the door. Sounds like a case of anti-vaxers vs. DCS. 

  Officers pointing guns forced their way into the family’s home in the middle of the night last month after the Arizona Department of Child Safety called police for a welfare check on a child with a 100 degree-plus fever and no vaccinations.

  The parents had ignored a doctor’s recommendation to take their 2-year-old to the hospital, saying their son’s fever had decreased.

  Funny you'd mention anti-vaxxers...I figured they told the Dr "no thanks" and he/she involved the police because they were ignoring the establishment's (Pharma's) rules.  

  A 100° fever and the parents said it had decreased...not a reason to call DCS. 

  
  

  The cops showed up at 10:30 and didn't kick the door in until 1am after attempting to talk to the couple through the door and on the phone. The child had symptoms consistent with meningitis which is deadly (fatal in up to 50% of untreated cases) and highly contagious and needed to be tested further than his capability to do so in his office. The only evidence we have of a reduced fever was the parents claim which was not tested by any medical professional. Part of the reason for concern is that none of the couple's children had been vaccinated against this deadly disease so they were not just putting their one child's life in danger, but all of their children's lives in danger if the child had indeed been found to have meningitis. There were several phone calls and conversations between the doctor DCS and the parents attempting to get them to have their child properly tested prior to the police being involved. Lots of opportunities for the parents to avoid unpleasantness. They chose to ignore all of them.  

  Uhm, no to the symptoms consistent with meninigitis, kids have fevers all of the time, that is how a healthy immune system develops, 100 is no reason to rush a kid to the ER, you do lab work and do your job as a Dr, kids with meningitis aren't laughing or playing, they are lethargic, that Dr. pulled that out of his butt to justify calling DCS. And, it depends on if it is viral or bacterial meningitis. Teething will give a kid a 100 degree temperature, go ahead and have a kid and pay for that ER visit if you want. 
  
  Not saying those parents are geniuses, no clue why they ignored the cops, but I would say they protected their rights and they were correct about THEIR childs fever. 

  I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  March 2019 #7

  Two observations - 
  
  1) Alpha never had kids. Making comments about a subject he has absolutely zero experience (knowledge?) in. Leave the parenting to the parents. You don't know ****. 
  
  2) This process was supposed to fix the previous failure: Before the law was changed, DCS could simply steal a child without a warrant. Now they knock, and if ignored, bring the SWAT team to steal a child. Where does it say I have to respond to ANYONE knocking on my door? 
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• sgtrock21 Senior Member Posts: 1,933 Senior Member

  March 2019 #8

  alphasigmookie said:

  I feel like this is a tough case and a bit more nuanced than our headline reads. I guess it comes down to how much right parents have to endanger the lives of their own children. 
  
  As for the police, it seems like they followed all proper procedures and attempted all other means to communicate with the parents before breaking down the door. Sounds like a case of anti-vaxers vs. DCS. 

  The child's fever decreased to near normal and they were feeling much better. The parents made what they considered the correct call. It was obviously the correct call as the child is still living. Unbelievable government over-reach. Judicial, DCS, and Law Enforcement, has traumatized the children, parents, and grandparents. These innocent peoples lives have been devastated by a butt hurt Doctor whose instructions were not followed who contacted DCS, who acquired a warrant from a Judge who had no detailed information. Backed up by Law Enforcement which escalated to a SWAT forced entry which resulted in DCS custody of the 3 children.     
  
  

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• Accipiter New Member Posts: 886 Senior Member

  March 2019 #9

  So I don’t get it.  A parent needs to have a medical professional check temperature in order for it to be legit?  “All we have is the parents saying the fever decreased.”  What more do we need than the parents saying the fever decreased?  Why does there need to be another side to the story?  This is cut and dry over reach.  Nothing at all “tough” or “nuanced” about it.

  Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.
  
  ECHO...ECHO....echo...
  
  Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
  
  Karma.........It’s a bitch.

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• tennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,444 Senior Member

  March 2019 #10

  DCS are one of the new arms of the neo Nazis sanctioned by the State. Yank the kids from the parents, put them in foster care where many are abused and neglected, and do every vindictive thing possible to keep the parents from regaining custody of their children. Lower than a whale turd in the bottom of the Challenger Deep trench doesn't quite cover it.
  

  Doctor, if test results were not in hand showing positive diagnosis of meningitis, was shooting from the hip. And that was possibly due to the child (children) not being vaccinated. If that was the case and he reported to cops and DHS that the child had meningitis then he lied to both. Lying to cops is illegal, unless you're a doctor, I guess.
  

  A fever of 100 degrees in a child can be caused by a lot of things, even reactions to food. Teething, start of a cold, a reaction to food, or a reaction to a bazillion other bacteria and viruses out there will cause a fever. The fever is the body's attempt to cook and kill the virus.
  

  The doctor zeroing in on meningitis sounds like a scare tactic to get the kid to the emergency room and have the docs and nurses swarm the mother and cow her into the vaccinations for the child.

  Regarding separating the three children and not placing them together is another filthy tactic of DHS, the courts, and the judges. "The kids have already gone through the trauma of armed thugs knocking the door off the hinges and spiriting them away in the custody of hateful strangers. Lets heap on some more trauma by not letting them see one another while DCS continues to tear the family apart." Want kids to grow up hating cops and government prefects, then this the recipe for that outcome.
  

    “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
  ― Douglas Adams
  

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• CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,828 Senior Member

  March 2019 #11

  alphasigmookie said:

  CHIRO1989 said:

  
  

  Uhm, no to the symptoms consistent with meninigitis, kids have fevers all of the time, that is how a healthy immune system develops, 100 is no reason to rush a kid to the ER, you do lab work and do your job as a Dr, kids with meningitis aren't laughing or playing, they are lethargic, that Dr. pulled that out of his butt to justify calling DCS. And, it depends on if it is viral or bacterial meningitis. Teething will give a kid a 100 degree temperature, go ahead and have a kid and pay for that ER visit if you want. 
  
  Not saying those parents are geniuses, no clue why they ignored the cops, but I would say they protected their rights and they were correct about THEIR childs fever. 

  The doctor examined the kid, none of us did. Story said Dr thought the kid could have meningitis. I haven't examined the kid and am not a doctor. I imagine you haven't examined the kid either. We only really have one side of the story here, the parents side. Maybe they were 100% in the right, but from the details in the story I don't think there's a high probability of that. That isn't to say DCS was 100% in the right either, but lots of opportunities for the parents to not cause escalation of the situation.   

  Kids with meningitis don't leave the office with their parents, they are admitted to hospitals, just because the Dr. "thought" something does not justify the chain of events, you do the lab work and confirm, you do your job.

  I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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• CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,828 Senior Member

  March 2019 #12

  CaliFFL said:

  Two observations - 
  
  1) Alpha never had kids. Making comments about a subject he has absolutely zero experience (knowledge?) in. Leave the parenting to the parents. You don't know ****. 
  
  2) This process was supposed to fix the previous failure: Before the law was changed, DCS could simply steal a child without a warrant. Now they knock, and if ignored, bring the SWAT team to steal a child. Where does it say I have to respond to ANYONE knocking on my door? 
  

  The warrant got things moving in the wrong direction.

  I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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• earlyagain Posts: 6,798 Senior Member

  March 2019 #13

  The tv news is spreading slander of the parents to influence the court of public opinion. That raises my level of suspicion of the DCS..

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• CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,828 Senior Member

  March 2019 #14

  I will add, I have contacted a DCS agency on 3 occasions in my career, it is not a willy nilly decision because this is a typical result, and, if you are wrong in your decision the family is going to get pounded with legal fees in addition to being put through hell and separated, if things were not actually bad before the phone call to DCS, they are going to be afterwards

  I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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• Varmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,435 Senior Member

  March 2019 #15

  Having been the recipient of a bogus CPS claim, I wouldnt even pee on a CPS drone if he or she were on fire.
  

  It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.

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• Jayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,020 Senior Member

  March 2019 #16

  There appears to be way more to this story than the cops kicking down the door because a kid had a fever...there were significant issues with this family including domestic violence. CPS were involved long before this incident...
  
  That being said, CPS in general, is often a day late and a dollar short in cases that really need their attention and completely out of control in cases that don't...

  Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"

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• Gene L Senior Member Posts: 11,815 Senior Member

  March 2019 edited March 2019 #17

  Fox News reported the kid's temp was 105 F, which is one or two degrees from brain damage.  I have nothing but good experiences with DFACS, which have in my experience rescued kids from horrible circumstances.
  

  Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  

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• Gene L Senior Member Posts: 11,815 Senior Member

  March 2019 edited March 2019 #18

  The last case I remember from DFACS  was a kid who was being handcuffed by his parents and forced to sleep in a closet on the floor and being starved.  A teacher noticed his Free Breakfast appetite at school...he was ravenoous.  They reported it to DFACS who began an investigation which was turned over to us.  The parents were shooting the kid with airsoft guns in his genital area to punish him.  We interviewed and prosecuted the bastards (the mother was a jailer in an a neighboring county) and they both got 40 years in prison each. 
  

  
  

  So DFACS has a warm place in my heart.

  
  

  https://www.onlineathens.com/article/20121025/NEWS/310259942
  

  
  

  Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  

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• CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,828 Senior Member

  March 2019 #19

  Gene L said:

  Fox News reported the kid's temp was 105 F, which is one or two degrees from brain damage.  I have nothing but good experiences with DFACS, which have in my experience rescued kids from horrible circumstances.
  

  If this is the case, and the parents refused to get the kid up the ladder for medical care from the original Dr., then I would have made the call too, FWIW

  I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11

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• jbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,191 Senior Member

  March 2019 #20

  Yes, you force the kid into the hospital. No you don't need SWAT to do a forceable entry.

  "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson

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• Gene L Senior Member Posts: 11,815 Senior Member

  March 2019 #21

  You need someone to force an entry.  Who better than a SWAT team with a warrant?  The parents should have opened the door at 10:30 and there would have been no need for a forced entry at all.  Piss poor parenting, with almost no regard for their child's safety.  Meningitis is an extremely contagious disease, and public health is a concern.

  
  

  Some of you guys surprise me.  It's the usual suspects who attach or delete information from their posts and cherry pick to leave Buzz Words designed to appeal the the mob instinct.  Objectivity and thus honesty  comes into question.
  

  Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  

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