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EDC With a Slide Mounted MRDS - Conceal-ability

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  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    I want to post something from many years back. It's not completely relevant to the issue of red dots, but it's relevant to the issue of technology and initially not believing in it or completely trusting it. I learned a lesson by doing this experiment and was able to quasi-scientifically quantify a significant improvement in performance involving three experienced hand-gunners using two identical weapons, but with different sighting equipment. I think that does apply here.

    http://www.handgunsmag.com/editorial/tactics_training_nsights_080906/138690
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,017 Senior Member
    Regarding night sights, I have swung back and forth on the pendulum. 

    From a work (LE?) point of view, I have grown to dislike them.  They tend to glow nice and bright so the shooter can see them. Unfortunately, they glow nice and bright so that the opponent or person of interest can see them as well when the gun is holstered.  I have had to place my hand over my holstered sidearm on many occasion when sneaking up on or hiding from folks in very close proximity. Red dots do it as well if not dimmed after the day/night transition. 
    I’ve also come to the conclusion, if LE intend to use a sidearm at night.......put a damn light on the thing.  If they have NV available, put a laser on it. 

    Having made a shift in my method of shooting with handgun sights, I prefer a bright ass fiber optic or painted front sight with a more subdued rear. Many/most of my regularly carried handguns wear such a set up. Having had most of them for awhile and the tritium night sights becoming dim over time, I am replacing the front sights with gaudy fiber optic (protected) posts. They stand out life a lady of the night in church. Perfect!!!

    I am transitioning from the “focus on the front sight” school of thought to the “focus on the target” band wagon. A gaudy front sight allows me to do this. Focus on the target while still seeing the sight. My speed has increased ridiculously and my accuracy from 15 yards and in has not been hindered. In fact, I am raising my acceptable standard by decreasing the acceptable impact area. Only IPSC-A Zone or “Half A” hits are acceptable with any speed drill. 

    Red dots are nice but take a fair amount of training to acquire as the sight picture is quite different. If not used to using one, you have to “find the dot” on presentation. Doable. But, takes familiarization. 

    I cant afford a red dot on all my handguns. Hell, I can’t afford night sights in all my handguns. I find a gaudy fiber optic front to be a great compromise for speed/accuracy that won’t break the bank.

    I didn't used to think so.  
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • DanChamberlainDanChamberlain Senior Member Posts: 3,395 Senior Member
    The DOD is working on Laser Eyes... so soon it will be moot. You have to take a pill though...
    It's a source of great pride for me, that when my name is googled, one finds book titles and not mug shots. Daniel C. Chamberlain
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,542 Senior Member
    My biggest peeve with the dot sight is inclement weather. I don't have one on a handgun but I do on my HD shotgun.

    I took it out to the range on a bad day once and it started raining pretty good. Well, the lens got wet and the dot started looking kinda funky so I wiped the lens with my thumb and managed to make a smear mark across the lens that made the whole thing almost useless. The smear was so bad you couldn't even use it to co-witness the front sight. I used a shop rag in my range bag and cleaned it off and I was back in business. It's a good tool for HD, inside the house but don't take it out in bad weather. If you do, bring something to clean the lens off besides your thumb.

    Just sayin'.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,017 Senior Member
    Use Rain-X. It works. I put it on my red dot optics. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,890 Senior Member
    QUICK UPDATE:

    After EDC'ing for about 6 months with the MRDS, with some trepidation at times from not being able to pick up the dot, I'm a convert.

    I recently took a 4 hour block of instruction with Scott Jedlinski from the Modern Samurai Project that solidified my opinion.

    Pouring rain? I should have taken a picture, but I got caught in a torrential downpour and the dot was still usable.

    Maintenance? I've done none, and even with my fingerprints all over the glass it's still usable.

    Durability? I use the RDS to rack the slide.

    I'll start another thread soonish.
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,702 Senior Member
    But...
    Batteries!
    Glass!
    Higher profile!
    Overkill is underrated.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    horselips said:
    What kind of confrontation are you equipping yourself for? Self-defense means shooting a mugger who's right in your face, a home invader across a room, or at most, a carjacker no further away than the length of your car. For this you need a red dot sight? 

    You shoot a bad guy that the local assistant district attorney thinks wasn't close enough to be an immediate threat and you'll end up in the deepest, darkest dungeon he can find.   
    The RDS moves eye focus to the target and doesn’t require aligning two visual planes with a third. 

    Use the RDS at any distance you’d use iron sights. 

    So using a RDS on an AR15 for home defense is a no-no too? How about a weapon light? Is that too scary and shocking for a jury too?
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    Good to see that spatially at least, it works for that application

    So here's my challenge for you SS3:

    Treat that thing not like a serious shooter evaluating gear that you are, but rather like the incidental carry permit holder who is looking for a crutch to prop up poor shooting technique. ... (etc et all)

    I ask this of you because you get it.  Give that whizzbang a fair shake and see if it actually does anything for you to make it worth dealing with the above.
    Will do, and working on it. I haven't deliberately torture tested the unit but I'm not babying it either.

    Truth be told, I still haven't nailed down picking up the dot on initial presentation so I'm still a little hesitant to EDC it.
    Keep eyes on the target and bring the RDS up to your visual area. Repeat—a lot. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,792 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Regarding night sights, I have swung back and forth on the pendulum. 

    From a work (LE?) point of view, I have grown to dislike them.  They tend to glow nice and bright so the shooter can see them. Unfortunately, they glow nice and bright so that the opponent or person of interest can see them as well when the gun is holstered.  I have had to place my hand over my holstered sidearm on many occasion when sneaking up on or hiding from folks in very close proximity. Red dots do it as well if not dimmed after the day/night transition. 
    I’ve also come to the conclusion, if LE intend to use a sidearm at night.......put a damn light on the thing.  If they have NV available, put a laser on it. 

    Much truth here.  Between indicator lights on body cameras, radios, etc... a lot of officers are starting to look like Christmas trees.  A good gun-mounted light comes on when you want it to, and makes your irons jump out and say "HOWDY!"  Night sights or at least some form of fiber optic. . .I'm not sure I'd want to be without them because I've seen plenty of instances of dead flashlight batteries, and I've seen equally as many instances of lights falling off the gun when firing.  I tend to drop tritium into the "necessary evil" category, but yeah, in a military setting where everybody's scooting around with NVG's?  BLACK ME THE HELL OUT!

    Having made a shift in my method of shooting with handgun sights, I prefer a bright ass fiber optic or painted front sight with a more subdued rear. Many/most of my regularly carried handguns wear such a set up. Having had most of them for awhile and the tritium night sights becoming dim over time, I am replacing the front sights with gaudy fiber optic (protected) posts. They stand out life a lady of the night in church. Perfect!!!

    The Ameriglo Bold night sights that are coming as a factory option on Gen 5 Glocks are pretty kick-ass in this regard for several reasons:  First, the front tritium dot is surrounded by a screaming blaze orange outline, and the rear dots have no outline at all and may actually be slightly smaller; second, they've made the rear sight gap wider relative to the front blade so that it is considerably quicker to pick up than the barely-any-gap-at-all you see with Glock's in-house brand.  Retrofitted an equivalent set (white outline front) to my Gen 3 .40 to last it to it's retirement.

    I am transitioning from the “focus on the front sight” school of thought to the “focus on the target” band wagon. A gaudy front sight allows me to do this. Focus on the target while still seeing the sight. My speed has increased ridiculously and my accuracy from 15 yards and in has not been hindered. In fact, I am raising my acceptable standard by decreasing the acceptable impact area. Only IPSC-A Zone or “Half A” hits are acceptable with any speed drill. 

    The above Ameriglo's have been helping me out a lot at this - more because of their geometry than the orange front.  I'm not adopting the school of thought of focus on the target so much as not being able to get back on the front sight as well as I used to.  The aging eyeballs and their decreasing ability to shift distances with speed are changing the realities somewhat.

    Red dots are nice but take a fair amount of training to acquire as the sight picture is quite different. If not used to using one, you have to “find the dot” on presentation. Doable. But, takes familiarization. 

    And that's one of my major philosophical hang ups on the things.  It's NOT the magic wand that the "Really Sarge?  I have to go qualify AGAIN?" crowd thinks is going to solve all their problems; you STILL have to go to the range and train with the thing; it does NOTHING to address issues of grip, trigger control, etc... which are at least as big a problem as sighting issues; it can more than DOUBLE the cost of a duty handgun; and it brings a lot of maintenance, durability, and training doctrine questions to the party.  I'm hearing tales of battery brands that can't handle recoil and I know of at least one agency that is making officers who choose to roll with these things shoot the qual course twice - once with the whizzbang and again with the whizzbang turned off using suppressor height sights.  Ammo consumption doubled.

    Kinda reminds me of the "joys" associated with DA/SA trigger mechanisms on auto pistols.  The mechanism was conceived because the untrained LCD's were shooting themselves in the foot with single action Lugers, 1911's etc...  Give them a DA-to-SA trigger transition to manage and now they can't hit what they intend to without a lot of training.  If you're going to give them a lot of training, they'll be safe and probably more effective with the SA Luger or 1911 for which they only have one type of trigger pull to manage.  IS A GUY WHO SANK THE COST OF A RED DOT INTO A GOOD SET OF SIGHTS AND AMMO TO PRACTICE GOING TO BE MORE OR LESS EFFECTIVE THAN THE GUY WHO JUST BOUGHT THE RED DOT?  I VOTE MORE, BECAUSE HE IS NOWHERE NEAR AS TECH-DEPENDENT.

    I cant afford a red dot on all my handguns. Hell, I can’t afford night sights in all my handguns. I find a gaudy fiber optic front to be a great compromise for speed/accuracy that won’t break the bank.

    I didn't used to think so.  
    There's a lot of wisdom in that post - my boldfaced thoughts interjected.  I'm always going to come down on the side of the most important attribute of a handgun is that it must WORK no matter the conditions and who is at the controls. It's the last-ditch option where blunt instruments can have a lot of advantages over products of the NASA clean-room. If this thinking puts me on the road to cranky old-fartitude, uttering phrases like "You dang kids", I guess it's a cross I'll have to bear. :D 
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    If you look at the competition world.  Red dots are the fastest method of delivering rounds on target.  Rarely are any of the first 10 spots in any timed match occupied by iron sights. I would think that would correlate to real world as well but they do fail under the shock.  I can't hit squat with my suppressor height sights w/o the dot on.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,563 Senior Member
    On Glocks I like dots. Just the ergonomics of how my natural point of aim is with Glocks. I tend to look higher over the sights with natural pointing eyes closed come-up drills to find your natural aiming position. For the same reason tall sights work for me well, too. 

    Now Berettas and CZ?  Not so much. My natural gun aim is much more in line with my eyes. 

    The problem is then...which do I use more?  There’s a lot of practice to be proficient with a dot gun and a traditional sight gun. Going back and forth is difficult. 

    The competition guys thing.... eh. That’s flat range gaming. There is absolutely training value to be had in competition, but determining your sight type...not so much. 
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • BAMAAKBAMAAK Senior Member Posts: 4,484 Senior Member
    I just said dots are the fastest way to put rounds on a target.  No recommendations for a personal choice.
    "He only earns his freedom and his life Who takes them every day by storm."

    -- Johann Wolfgang von Goethe, German writer and politician
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    I resurrected this old thread not only because I found it very interesting that the OP was willing to embrace the new technology for his own every day use, but at the time I thought it just a matter of time until it became embraced mainstream.

    Enter this new pistol.
    https://forums.gunsandammo.com/discussion/39658/new-springfield-armory-9mm-subcompact-pistol#latest

    Im not terribly interested in the gun, but I found this associated picture in another periodical to be fascinating.

    The optical sight not only appears to be highly durable, but it looks like it co-witnesses the open/iron sights. Further more, an EDC holster is being marketed for it.

    Back in a year ago, I really felt like Shotgunshooter3 was ahead of the curve on this subject. Our human eyes deteriorate, that's a fact. Optical aids for rifles have become for all purposes just about mandatory for serious use. I've been wrong before, but I see this is an intrical part of the concealed EDC world in the future.
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,890 Senior Member
    I know I owe a detailed update, but life gets in the way. 

    As a bit of an update, I am sold on using a RDS for carry. I've done zero maintenance besides battery changes and cleaning the glass off with my shirt tail. It works fine in the rain and snow, and I haven't experienced any errant POA/POI shift. 

    This that said, it is NOT a magic tool that will make up for lack of training nor poor fundamentals. If anything, it requires MORE training because of the transition. However, when you actually put that work in, the results you yield surpass that of iron sights. 

    If iron sights were so much better, we'd be seeing SWAT and .mil running them on rifles. We don't. They've been largely delegated to a backup role. What we're seeing now is that technology finally becoming reliable in a pistol sized package. 

    Is it for everyone? Definitely not. Will serious trigger pullers see tangible benefits? Yes, if they put the work in. For me, it's proven to be well worth it and I'll continue to use it. 
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    I see people choosing them or not in the same way they choose a particular handgun over something different. Things like profile, clarity, perifial angle, holster options, and maybe even optic specific irons for co-witnessing will only improve and develope with time.
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