Long Read... Charty/Graphy Capitalism Stuff

Jermanator · April 2019

The guy has some good ideas. Obviously, he knows his money chops. Anyway, it is worth your time if you are interested in his perspective on how to save capitalism...

https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/why-how-capitalism-needs-reformed-parts-1-2-ray-dalio

earlyagain · April 2019

Seems like completely abolishing the entire public school administration structure would be good. Double teachers pay with the money saved, make school all year with shorter days and put teachers in charge of administration. No more federal funding. It all comes locally so that illicit manipulation of policy and bureaucratic suffocation gets reduced.

Accipiter · April 2019

I thought George W Bush already saved capitalism. You know with huge government bailouts.

bisley · April 2019

The battle between capitalism and socialism will never end, because there will never be a government that is honest enough to regulate capitalism, with any degree of consistency. Capitalism is a naturally occurring phenomenon that does what it does, according to the natural 'laws' of survival. A democracy elects individuals into powerful positions,in government, and capitalists use the power they have accumulated, through wealth, to influence elections. They do it by campaign contributions and marketing decisions that favor certain voting blocs, as well as lobbying ambitious career politicians to create laws that favor their businesses.

Knowing that, the socialists will always have valid complaints against capitalism, with which to exploit those who live at the other end of the spectrum. The problem, for capitalists at every level, is that radical socialists attack the system, itself, rather than merely legitimately targeting the individuals who are abusing the system, because it is so much easier. A multi-billionaire has the resources to shield himself from attacks of all kinds, including relocating his wealth to a safe place. Unable to nail the worst offenders, the socialists lower their sights to include any successful business, and they can always find a few self-made millionaires that don't protect themselves very well, because they know that they have done nothing wrong. They are easy targets because they drive nice cars and live in gated communities - two things that, taken by themselves, signal that they are 'robber-barons' to the minimum wage worker or the perpetually unemployed citizen that can find no path to financial success.

All of the genuine progress that has ever been made towards uplifting the poor has been made by moderate people from both sides coming to agreements in which both sides feel like they have been screwed. This is the way successful compromises are made, and the only way that they ever succeed, long-term. Attacking the system of capitalism can only work by convincing an overwhelming majority that it is possible for everyone to be equal and have a high standard of living. Vladimir Lenin was the first to discover the impossibility of that ever happening, and why it will never be possible. The 'movers and shakers' of socialist movements also desire power, and once they get it, the only way they can hold on to it is to employ the same methods that the capitalists used. Not being experienced capitalist elites, they always end up using more authoritarian means to protect their own power, up to and including violence. It is just a fact that professional radicals cannot flip a switch and become moderates.

Capitalism will exist for as long as man exists. It existed in the darkest days of Joseph Stalin's reign of terror, as the black market, and it exists today, in Red China - they just call it something else. The trick is in reforming it, and that is done incrementally, so that it doesn't hurt so much. The old time liberals understood that, but they have been replaced by ambitious politicians that either don't understand capitalism, or don't care, as long as they achieve their career goals.

If liberals really wanted to help the poor, they would use the money being swallowed up by the bureaucracies and political campaigns for technical schools that teach middle-class skills and honest communication skills to the unskilled. That would enable them to get and succeed at middle class jobs, that might eventually enable them to send their children to higher education schools, someday - if they can also be reformed. It ain't rocket science - it's just a problem to be solved with honest effort and patience. It is about earning trust, over time, and through genuine results.

bisley · April 2019

Alf, I like some of what you said, but when you get to the part about people in impoverished neighborhoods selling drugs because Walmart offers no path to wealth, you're getting into social problems that businesses cannot fix, and government can only throw money at it.

The government has tried to force poor communities to assimilate into the middle class, with bussing, education assistance, hiring quotas, government jobs, assistance in terminating unwanted pregnancy, emergency health care, and a host of intercessions into the way businesses typically operate. After about 50 years, the government has failed to significantly improve upon what churches and philanthropists were slowly accomplishing, in the '50's and early '60's. Mostly, it has created resentment, from all sides, and generations of welfare families, where most of the children have already failed by their teen years. Any logical thinker could have predicted it, but telling the truth about it exacted a big price that the 'enlightened intellectuals' were not willing to pay. They still aren't.

Feeling sorry for the underprivileged is an expression of a moral person, but when you don't know how to solve the problem, you don't just keep doubling down on the things that don't work, and looking for someone to blame for it not working.

CaliFFL · April 2019

Without rebutting the entire post, I want to address this:

In poor communities where opportunities are scarce, and you see people who are older and smarter struggling to get by, it's easy to understand why one would ask themselves the question "why bother?".

Yeah, I grew up poor in one of those poor rural communities...I decided I didn't want to be poor white trash and did something about it. Now I'm middle class white trash.

And getting a degree for the sake of a degree also devalues education. Transgender studies, or French philosophy, or social justice degrees grow up to be baristas.

earlyagain · April 2019

Work used to demand some level of respect. The grocery clerk wore a clean apron and canned goods, food packages etc., were carefully handled, stacked, and displayed with pride. The janitor, even the Good Humor ice cream delivery driver wore a clean and pressed uniform, took pride in their work, and recieved respect.

A culture of demeaning and disparaging honest labor has been carefully cultivated to the point where the availability of quality service is almost non-existent. No one cares because this work is beneath me. Im not advocating exorbitant pay for unskilled labor. I'm saying any task worthy of being desired has inherent value commensurate with presumed and assumed value of the person performing that task commensurate with that persons dedication to that task.

As Alf said, cultural, not governed.

RugerFan · April 2019

CaliFFL said:

Without rebutting the entire post, I want to address this:

In poor communities where opportunities are scarce, and you see people who are older and smarter struggling to get by, it's easy to understand why one would ask themselves the question "why bother?".

Yeah, I grew up poor in one of those poor rural communities...I decided I didn't want to be poor white trash and did something about it. Now I'm middle class white trash.

And getting a degree for the sake of a degree also devalues education. Transgender studies, or French philosophy, or social justice degrees grow up to be baristas.

You are the exception. Poverty begats poverty.

RugerFan · April 2019

When people compare U. S. education results with other countries, it is not an "apples to apples" comparison.

U. S. Public schools test each and every student. In several other countries , by the time a student gets to ~13-15 yoa their educational track has been decided for them: vocational or college. They are then educated differently. Only the college bound students are tested.

Here ALL students in a grade take the same exact test approved by their respective state. The only exceptions are for the severe and profound mentally handicapped.

Under those circumstances it's no wonder we look bad. We're being compared to only the upper portion of other countries' students.

I'm not saying that happens in all countries. But it's not uncommon either, especially in Europe.

CaliFFL · April 2019

RugerFan said:

CaliFFL said:

Without rebutting the entire post, I want to address this:

In poor communities where opportunities are scarce, and you see people who are older and smarter struggling to get by, it's easy to understand why one would ask themselves the question "why bother?".

Yeah, I grew up poor in one of those poor rural communities...I decided I didn't want to be poor white trash and did something about it. Now I'm middle class white trash.

And getting a degree for the sake of a degree also devalues education. Transgender studies, or French philosophy, or social justice degrees grow up to be baristas.

You are the exception. Poverty begats poverty.

I have to remind you that the Ellis Island immigrants were out of poverty in three generations for the most part. Same goes for Vietnam refugees. I bought into the whole "you can be whatever you want if you apply yourself and work your ass off philosophy." I wanted to be an engineer. I chose working my way through college. Others go into trades. The lack of "work" thing begets poverty.

As mentioned above, culture helps, but only the individual can accomplish the goal. And only if they are willing to sacrifice and strive for it. Nothing was handed to me. Ever.

RugerFan · April 2019

I agree with you. A person can get out of poverty if they have the drive and desire. Unfortunately most people don't.

coolgunguy · April 2019

RugerFan said:

CaliFFL said:

Without rebutting the entire post, I want to address this:

In poor communities where opportunities are scarce, and you see people who are older and smarter struggling to get by, it's easy to understand why one would ask themselves the question "why bother?".

Yeah, I grew up poor in one of those poor rural communities...I decided I didn't want to be poor white trash and did something about it. Now I'm middle class white trash.

And getting a degree for the sake of a degree also devalues education. Transgender studies, or French philosophy, or social justice degrees grow up to be baristas.

You are the exception. Poverty begats poverty.

A modest correction:

Being comfortable with the poverty you're in begets more of the same. There are no shortage of stories about folks who were fed up with poverty and managed to make their way out of it. The common denominator in every last one of those stories - without exception - is the determination of the person to change their situation for the better.

The simple fact is, folks who are comfortable - or not yet sufficiently uncomfortable - make for lousy stories... because their situation is stagnant, or even getting worse.

Jermanator · April 2019

I think the author does a pretty good job at identifying indicators that work against capitalism but doesn't really look deep enough into the root of the problems and does very little to offer solutions.

Like for schools-- a liberal is going to say we need to spend more public funds to help the kids learn. A conservative will often say that they need to raise standards and possibly promote for profit charter schools as an alternative for public schools.

I have seen all of that go down in Michigan-- we gave extra money to the Detroit schools and the kids still can't read. Raise standards? The teachers stop teaching and are mandated by the government to become full time test prep tutors. I have seen charter schools where they took failing kids off the public system that became failing kids in the charter system.

I think there is a self perpetuating culture of ignorance on both the left and right of our society. Unfortunately, I have no idea how to solve that. The cure for ignorance is knowledge but nobody seems to want to engage in that-- sadly in the midst of the Information Age.

earlyagain · April 2019

I wish I knew too.
I'm more interested in seeing quality public education that's equally available than seeing capitalism reformed.

Jermanator · April 2019

They should go hand in hand. Educated people with the ability to think independently is a good combination to drive innovations and productivity... and create wealth.

coolgunguy · April 2019

We're not really talking about knowledge = wealth though.... I mean, I've known more than a few people who would be considered knowledgeable who were also on the poor side of the ledger and I've also known many who would be considered quite stupid, but who also make very comfortable livings.

I guess I would agree that knowledge and the ability to learn are pathways to comfort, (and, most likely the pathways that the vast majority should follow) but they aren't the only pathways...

There is nothing wrong or stupid about achieving greater knowledge, but folks tend to think that continuing education is the ONLY way to better yourself and that's just not so.

earlyagain · April 2019

It's a question of value. Maybe. I value knowledge and intelligence more than monetary wealth. My reason is that many problems can't be solved with just money, no matter how great the amount.

CaliFFL · April 2019

earlyagain said:

It's a question of value. Maybe. I value knowledge and intelligence more than monetary wealth. My reason is that many problems can't be solved with just money, no matter how great the amount.

It is a question of value. You can value knowledge and intelligence more than wealth, but you can also use that knowledge to enrich yourself. This is where capitalism comes in. Without some legitimate form of capitalism, an individual will never achieve monetary success, no matter how smart they are.

Jermanator · April 2019

coolgunguy said:

We're not really talking about knowledge = wealth though.... I mean, I've known more than a few people who would be considered knowledgeable who were also on the poor side of the ledger and I've also known many who would be considered quite stupid, but who also make very comfortable livings.

I guess I would agree that knowledge and the ability to learn are pathways to comfort, (and, most likely the pathways that the vast majority should follow) but they aren't the only pathways...

There is nothing wrong or stupid about achieving greater knowledge, but folks tend to think that continuing education is the ONLY way to better yourself and that's just not so.

As opposed to going through life with your head up your ass, I believe knowledge is a more useful option. I am not saying everyone needs a college degree-- Warren's "free college" plan ranks right up there with "build a wall"... far from it. I mean look on here... we had a guy that just quit due to his own ignorance. He goes off citing our constitution and he doesn't understand it. He completely ignored legitimately valid information because it was published in the New Yorker. I mean come on... someone that is so ignorant they are ignorant of their ignorance!

I get jabbed on here from time to time because of some idea that if I don't agree with someone, it is because I was brainwashed by a leftest political science professor in college-- not that I can form my own thoughts and think for myself without the effort of some left wing plot. Getting a college education is often compared to a leftest doctrine camp-- heaven forbid they go there to help themselves become educated independent thinkers!

The idea that people are actively discouraging the pursuit of knowledge-- the severe anti-intellectualism, disturbs me.

And yes, I do agree that people can be book smart and completely lack common sense, but I also realize that a very bright kid with a 5th grade reading level, and very little knowledge of math or science will probably make a very successful drug dealer or thief, that same kid with a high school education would probably be a whole lot more productive for our society-- all things being equal.

CaliFFL · April 2019

coolgunguy said:

RugerFan said:

CaliFFL said:

Without rebutting the entire post, I want to address this:

In poor communities where opportunities are scarce, and you see people who are older and smarter struggling to get by, it's easy to understand why one would ask themselves the question "why bother?".

Yeah, I grew up poor in one of those poor rural communities...I decided I didn't want to be poor white trash and did something about it. Now I'm middle class white trash.

And getting a degree for the sake of a degree also devalues education. Transgender studies, or French philosophy, or social justice degrees grow up to be baristas.

You are the exception. Poverty begats poverty.

A modest correction:

Being comfortable with the poverty you're in begets more of the same. There are no shortage of stories about folks who were fed up with poverty and managed to make their way out of it. The common denominator in every last one of those stories - without exception - is the determination of the person to change their situation for the better.

The simple fact is, folks who are comfortable - or not yet sufficiently uncomfortable - make for lousy stories... because their situation is stagnant, or even getting worse.

Well said. The comfort level is the driver.

I had no desire to be "rich" but I made an effort to keep from falling into the traps as a teen...stay away from drugs and booze. Don't knock up the GF. Do my homework. Take the advanced classes when offered. And one of my better decisions: Move away from the town I grew up in. Leave the negative influences behind. I watched way too many peers fall into the cycle and never escape.

I wasn't taught these things, but I sure as hell taught them to my kids.

CaliFFL · April 2019

alphasigmookie said:

coolgunguy said:

We're not really talking about knowledge = wealth though.... I mean, I've known more than a few people who would be considered knowledgeable who were also on the poor side of the ledger and I've also known many who would be considered quite stupid, but who also make very comfortable livings.

I guess I would agree that knowledge and the ability to learn are pathways to comfort, (and, most likely the pathways that the vast majority should follow) but they aren't the only pathways...

There is nothing wrong or stupid about achieving greater knowledge, but folks tend to think that continuing education is the ONLY way to better yourself and that's just not so.

As for secondary education, I agree that it's largely overemphasized, but it has also become a requirement for more and more jobs even though it probably Isn't necessary. A lot of the jobs that the previous generations were allowed to work up to or enter as apprentices are now off limits to anyone without a degree.

Secondary education should emphasize marketable skills. If you are going to college, what's the ROI? Too many students believe that any degree will land them lucrative jobs. Then they blame *someone else * for the debt they acquired and want it forgiven, by someone like Bernie.

Jermanator · April 2019

CaliFFL said:

Secondary education should emphasize marketable skills. If you are going to college, what's the ROI? Too many students believe that any degree will land them lucrative jobs. Then they blame *someone else * for the debt they acquired and want it forgiven, by someone like Bernie.

In a way, they almost have a right to blame someone else-- where my kids go to high school, there is a relentless push to make these kids think they have to go to college to be successful in life. We all know that is a load of crap. The way I understand it is that the school is under pressure to show good numbers for college enrollment and graduation rates to the politicians. What we get are kids not academically ready shoved out the door, or confused kids crammed into college that should have gone off to dental assisting classes straight out of high school instead... or getting a job as a barista as opposed the 4 year, $80,000 detour they took via a university gender studies degree.

And sadly, the parents are going along with it... "Yes junior... they only way you will be successful in life is to get a college degree."

They say that a college graduate makes an additional $1,000,000 over a lifetime over a high school graduate. But if you took that $80,000 for college and invested it over a career (62-18= 44 years)... and got 6% interest every year, that $80k would be worth over a million at 62 years old.

Jermanator · April 2019

I think that the consensus here is that government is not the solution-- every time they step in, they tend to screw things up more, no matter how good their intentions are. .

CaliFFL · April 2019

Jermanator said:

I think that the consensus here is that government is not the solution-- every time they step in, they tend to screw things up more, no matter how good their intentions are. .

Yep, the road to hell pavement.

CaliFFL · April 2019

Jermanator said:

CaliFFL said:

Secondary education should emphasize marketable skills. If you are going to college, what's the ROI? Too many students believe that any degree will land them lucrative jobs. Then they blame *someone else * for the debt they acquired and want it forgiven, by someone like Bernie.

In a way, they almost have a right to blame someone else-- where my kids go to high school, there is a relentless push to make these kids think they have to go to college to be successful in life. We all know that is a load of crap. The way I understand it is that the school is under pressure to show good numbers for college enrollment and graduation rates to the politicians. What we get are kids not academically ready shoved out the door, or confused kids crammed into college that should have gone off to dental assisting classes straight out of high school instead... or getting a job as a barista as opposed the 4 year, $80,000 detour they took via a university gender studies degree.

And sadly, the parents are going along with it... "Yes junior... they only way you will be successful in life is to get a college degree."

This is where parents need to be the greater influence. My son took welding and wood shop in high school. He would tell me he didn't want to sit in an office all day like his ol' man. He went to the local JC but gravitated towards trades classes. I paid attention and didn't pressure him to try to get a degree. He's 24 and has his own tree trimming/landscaping business. He is far from successful at this point, but he's happy.

What more can a parent ask for?

Accipiter · April 2019

CaliFFL said:

Jermanator said:

CaliFFL said:

Secondary education should emphasize marketable skills. If you are going to college, what's the ROI? Too many students believe that any degree will land them lucrative jobs. Then they blame *someone else * for the debt they acquired and want it forgiven, by someone like Bernie.

In a way, they almost have a right to blame someone else-- where my kids go to high school, there is a relentless push to make these kids think they have to go to college to be successful in life. We all know that is a load of crap. The way I understand it is that the school is under pressure to show good numbers for college enrollment and graduation rates to the politicians. What we get are kids not academically ready shoved out the door, or confused kids crammed into college that should have gone off to dental assisting classes straight out of high school instead... or getting a job as a barista as opposed the 4 year, $80,000 detour they took via a university gender studies degree.

And sadly, the parents are going along with it... "Yes junior... they only way you will be successful in life is to get a college degree."

This is where parents need to be the greater influence. My son took welding and wood shop in high school. He would tell me he didn't want to sit in an office all day like his ol' man. He went to the local JC but gravitated towards trades classes. I paid attention and didn't pressure him to try to get a degree. He's 24 and has his own tree trimming/landscaping business. He is far from successful at this point, but he's happy.

What more can a parent ask for?

I decided long ago not to “force” college on my children. In fact I will highly discourage them from degree programs that do not have a high earning potential. It is not that I believe a college degree has no value. It is that I believe that certain degrees have no value. Getting a degree for a degrees sake is just foolish.

I have what I consider to be a near worthless degree, and wish I had not wasted the time and money on it. I came through the system that pushed college as the most important choice, and my parent pushed college as well. I wish I had not listened.

Hopefully my children will grow up not to do something because it is a social norm, but rather to do something because it is of value to them to do it.

Bigslug · April 2019

Seems like there's a lot of artificial constructs and not a lot of human factor being considered here.

Not everybody gets to be an astronaut. If your parents were knuckle-dragging window-lickers, there's a good chance that you may also be dumber than a box of rocks. If you're not dumber than a box of rocks, and had the poor fortune to be raised by knuckle-dragging window-lickers, then you've got hurdles to overcome, and NO government program or touchy-feely outreach group is going to totally remove them from your path. You'll be motivated to rise above that by a little, a lot, or not at all, and the factors behind that are so complex they can never be graphed. Yes there's multi-generational poverty, but stupid and lazy are often multi-generational traits.

On the flip side, if you're not a knuckle-dragging window-licker, but your kid and grandkids are, there's a finite number of generations that they can be sustained at a high monetary level.

Also, success in any society, as success is defined by that society, typically requires one to play that society's games. Some of us simply are unable or unwilling to do that. Those folks either fail or manage to fake it well enough to meet their biological prerogatives of warm, dry, full belly, sexually satiated, and sometimes, parental instincts. If they're happy achieving that while living in a tar paper shack eating possum, are they really "impoverished"? One example, since we're largely discussing education - we talk constantly about the various social and political agendas being advanced through our public schools and colleges. If your kids are raised with values that are 180 degrees counter to those systems, what are their chances of integration and success within them - genius I.Q. or not? Another form of multi-generational challenge right there.

(Side rant - I will agree wholeheartedly that one of the greatest evils in society is putting college on the pedestal of being 100% necessary to attain success in life, coupled with the equally great evil of making that degree necessary to obtain a job, advancement, or certain level of pay in fields where it is clearly not. That second part is just lazy management failing to evaluate actual ability, and all they're guaranteed to get out of it is someone good at conformity and B.S. tolerance within that educational system. The product of these evils is that A WHOLE LOT of kids fail to pursue the trades they would excel at in school, choosing instead to follow "stigma-free" paths on which they ultimately learn they are fish out of water when they run into the wall of "higher learning", after which they spend years cast adrift with no idea of what to do with themselves while feeling like failures - all because we were spoon-fed this notion from kindergarten that we're all SUPPOSED to be astronauts, brain surgeons, and trial lawyers.)

A simple truth: Half of everyone you meet is below average intelligence. Half of everyone you meet is below average physical ability. One-half of everyone you meet will rate lower on the "hard-charging dynamo" scale than the other. Half of everyone you meet is going to be less able to conform to society's rules than the other half - which, by the way, is the half that's probably making the rules. At the end of the day, 100% of everyone you meet is competing for the same pool of resources and mates, so the ability to give a damn about your fellow man outside your immediate circle of family and friends has its practical limits - making the socialist ideal of lowering your comforts to elevate a stranger's patently ludicrous. With factors so obvious, why do we insist on these "disparity of income" studies, when the reality is that it's just Darwin trying to do his job?

zorba · April 2019

Jermanator said:

I think there is a self perpetuating culture of ignorance on both the left and right of our society.

Yep! And people tend to wallow in it. I don't have a solution either.

Jermanator · April 2019

The author also spoke about populism hindering capitalism. To a limited extent, I tend to believe that populism is a symptom of capitalism that is in need of adjustment and not a cause.

Jermanator · April 2019

alphasigmookie said:
Over a decade ago they started requiring a degree for store directors, cutting off all promotion opportunities to any line managers without a degree. Right before he retired a few years ago they extended that to new line managers. Now the highest you can get without a degree is department manager, a job that tops out at 40k regardless of experience. Same thing is happening across the economy. Increasing education requirements for a huge portion of jobs. So yes there are jobs you can get that pay ok without a degree, but the pool of those jobs is shrinking every year.

I think this is a symptom of the "everyone needs a college degree" mindset. Now that we have all these people with college degrees that didn't need them, we have an over abundance of them in the job market. The result is that the price to hire someone with a degree is cheap.

zorba · April 2019

alphasigmookie said:

Agree too many see the degree as the only thing needed and too many kids end up getting degrees that don't lead to a clear career path.

That said, as an example my dad was a store director for a major retail chain in the Midwest. For over 25 years. When he had quite a few line managers that didn't have college degrees. Some of the even got promoted to store directors to lead other stores.

Over a decade ago they started requiring a degree for store directors, cutting off all promotion opportunities to any line managers without a degree. Right before he retired a few years ago they extended that to new line managers. Now the highest you can get without a degree is department manager, a job that tops out at 40k regardless of experience. Same thing is happening across the economy. Increasing education requirements for a huge portion of jobs. So yes there are jobs you can get that pay ok without a degree, but the pool of those jobs is shrinking every year.

And there's exactly ZERO good reason for this, but its certainly true.

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