I had a mini skirt for awhile - it was really scary wearing the darn thing because you have to pre-plan EVERY move. Just above the knee is the shortest I'll wear now, and I really prefer them mid calf or longer.
-Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
"If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
Some years ago we had a police response to a supposed hostage situation across the street from my house. Two officers approached the front of the house with ARs. They were each backed up by officers armed with long barreled full ribbed sighted shot guns from at least thirty to fifty feet behind them.
I don't know, but if that was the only choices, should have been the other way around. I don't want a shotgun 30' behind me especially if they're shooting buck shot.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
I don't know the purpose of the shotgun guys. It looked odd to me, but without knowledge of their plan/tactics who knows?
The guys with shotguns took up stationary positions well the AR guys advanced on the house. I think the rear was also covered with access from the next street and may have even been where dwelling access was gained.
Interesting reading Jason and Gene's take on shotguns. Granted I'm civvie support in the rear with the gear, but I'm about 180 degrees opposite them both on the AR vs. shotgun argument.
I agree with Gene that a lot of cops look at a pump gun like it's some strange bit of technology dropped from an alien planet despite my hard efforts to teach them how to run it. As a kid who grew up running manually-operated long guns, there's definitely often a disconnect between teacher and student. I don't know that they are collectively a lot better with the AR, but at least once it is up and running, there's less mental stuff involved with keeping it running, and they get to press the bang button 30 times before they have to consider anything else. I can certainly see how that at least is comforting.
My thinking: sure, there's some distance, precision, and capacity advantages to the AR, but (A.) how much of law enforcement happens at distances beyond what a good buckshot load is capable of; (B.) how much needle-threading precision is typically necessary at those distances; (C.) how well is that precision maintained at the close distances commonly encountered if the operator forgets the AR's 2.5" mechanical offset and (D.) how often does someone shot with a slug or tight cluster of buckshot need to be shot again? Jason's 22-foot shooting was one that screamed out for buckshot - nine .33 caliber holes in a 7-10 inch cluster with the crap rounds, and barely out of the wad with the good stuff. You don't fix that with Bactine and a Band Aid.
And I do prefer the "blunt instrument / what you see is what you get" characteristics of shotgun ammo. As I touched on in my last post, there's a lot of "magic bullet" variables going on in the 5.56 world. When the magic works, it's magical. When the magic doesn't work, well. . .that sure was a loud .22LR.
Both of them totally valid tools, but it bounces of my noggin that the AR gets pulled out more, considering what the job usually entails.
Try shooting 00 buck at 25 yards at a silhouette target. You'll do good to get three hits on the target. Now try an AR at 25 yards.
When I was instructing and promoting the rifle, I placed a silhouette at 25, drew a line at the shoulders to represent a bad guy hiding behind cover, and gave shooters 15 seconds to fire at the target as much as they wanted/could. Only shots above the line counted. Under time pressure pistols and shotguns didn't get hits, although IIRC the shotgun got a shoulder hit. I then took a Nylon 66 and emptied it in about 12 seconds into the brain area of the target. I think the class was impressed, and just about everyone owned a .22. Even a .22 LR IMO beats both handguns and shotguns at that range.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Try shooting 00 buck at 25 yards at a silhouette target. You'll do good to get three hits on the target. Now try an AR at 25 yards.
Oh, rest assured, I've shot the bad stuff. A neighboring agency used to use a 27 pellet 4-buck load that would barely keep them all on a Godzilla-sized B-27 at 10 yards. Not sure what that round was supposed to be good for - self defense in a phone booth maybe? Fortunately, we've moved well beyond that.
The Federal Flight Control 00 introduced maybe 10 years back is some truly amazing stuff. If it's wrong for a man to love a shotgun shell, then I don't want to be right. Seven yards is still in the wad, ten is about a two inch pattern, fifteen is roughly palm-sized. Typical 25 yard spread on the stuff is about a foot for any random round, staying entirely on a "midget" BT-5 target, out of any random 870 hailing from the Dawn of Time I choose to launch it from. the Remington 8-pellet load is supposed to be pretty good as well, but I have no real time with that one. Beyond that, there are hollow-base Foster slugs - pretty much point and click for trajectory to 75 yards with the low recoil stuff, being about 8 inches low at 100. Dropping like a rock beyond that, but again, how often does that road get traveled?
Couldn't they put a tight choke on a patrol shotgun if it is going to shoot buckshot?
They can and they do. Remington uses a fixed modified choke on their 14" LE barrels. Benelli for reasons best known only to them puts screw-in chokes on their combat shotguns. Mossberg did the same for a few years, but seems to have finally pulled their heads out of their butts on that one and has gone back to fixed cylinder or IC, thus eliminating the extra complication of more moving parts. Threads caked solid with carbon and the possibility of corrosion, plus chokes creeping loose on a general-issue service arm is fun we don't need.
Thing is, Federal at least has figured out how to get the improved density effects of a choke simply by changing the wad from the classic four-petal affair that blows wide open as soon as it clears the muzzle to a more solid cup with smaller "air brakes" that release the shot much more gradually, and after it's made it well away from the turbulence of the muzzle blast. Chokes and more specialized lengthening of forcing cones and back-boring are still valid options if you need to improve pattern density with any random ammo. The Flight Control wad gives you that effect without having to expensively alter the basic "gas pipe" barrel that is still perfectly at home with beanbags, slugs, etc... I'm comfortable that it will stay "stray pellet free" out of any shotgun for 25 yards, and have patterned it in a few sexier guns that stretch that to 35.
It's a big part of my lukewarm acceptance of the AR for the job at hand. The stiletto has it's place, but the sledgehammer seems more widely appropriate to the field. Champagne for the special occasion; beer for the humdrum, everyday buzz.
Thanks for the info.......just seems to me they could put a fixed full choke on a dedicated buckshot gun, no worries about coming loose. I have a Carlson Coyote choke on an 870 supermag and have killed yotes at 70 paces with Remington 3" #4buck. I have not ever patterned it on paper though.
The wisdom of "a dedicated buckshot gun" depends a bit on where you go. Some agencies have gone slug only, some are buckshot only - the agencies in question can regard use of their non-chosen round with horror (OMG! It'll penetrate or bounce downrange, vs. OMG! We'll have stray pellets going EVERYWHERE!). We roll with buck in the gun and slugs on the side saddle and teach how to swap on the fly, so one likes the launch platform to be compatible with both.
Problem with dedicating a shotgun to buckshot is you've lost its slug capability. Police guns go medium...not the best slug gun, not the best shot gun, but they'll do either way.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
Not "dedicated". if you mean it in a conventional sense. SOP issued ammo, but an AR has a huge range of what works. Whether this is necessary, I don't know. But an AR is many times more versatile than a shotgun.
Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
Buckshot, slugs, 5.56, 9mm. You’ll never fill the needs of a mission with two or three of those options. The scenarios just exponentially multiply.
But you can’t carry it all, all the time. The dichotomy of preparation.
“There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
Replies
ECHO...ECHO....echo...
Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
Karma.........It’s a bitch.
ECHO...ECHO....echo...
Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
Karma.........It’s a bitch.
At least I think he is.
Mike
N454casull
Maybe SOP, maybe just making do, I don't know.
The guys with shotguns took up stationary positions well the AR guys advanced on the house. I think the rear was also covered with access from the next street and may have even been where dwelling access was gained.
I agree with Gene that a lot of cops look at a pump gun like it's some strange bit of technology dropped from an alien planet despite my hard efforts to teach them how to run it. As a kid who grew up running manually-operated long guns, there's definitely often a disconnect between teacher and student. I don't know that they are collectively a lot better with the AR, but at least once it is up and running, there's less mental stuff involved with keeping it running, and they get to press the bang button 30 times before they have to consider anything else. I can certainly see how that at least is comforting.
My thinking: sure, there's some distance, precision, and capacity advantages to the AR, but (A.) how much of law enforcement happens at distances beyond what a good buckshot load is capable of; (B.) how much needle-threading precision is typically necessary at those distances; (C.) how well is that precision maintained at the close distances commonly encountered if the operator forgets the AR's 2.5" mechanical offset and (D.) how often does someone shot with a slug or tight cluster of buckshot need to be shot again? Jason's 22-foot shooting was one that screamed out for buckshot - nine .33 caliber holes in a 7-10 inch cluster with the crap rounds, and barely out of the wad with the good stuff. You don't fix that with Bactine and a Band Aid.
And I do prefer the "blunt instrument / what you see is what you get" characteristics of shotgun ammo. As I touched on in my last post, there's a lot of "magic bullet" variables going on in the 5.56 world. When the magic works, it's magical. When the magic doesn't work, well. . .that sure was a loud .22LR.
Both of them totally valid tools, but it bounces of my noggin that the AR gets pulled out more, considering what the job usually entails.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
The Federal Flight Control 00 introduced maybe 10 years back is some truly amazing stuff. If it's wrong for a man to love a shotgun shell, then I don't want to be right. Seven yards is still in the wad, ten is about a two inch pattern, fifteen is roughly palm-sized. Typical 25 yard spread on the stuff is about a foot for any random round, staying entirely on a "midget" BT-5 target, out of any random 870 hailing from the Dawn of Time I choose to launch it from. the Remington 8-pellet load is supposed to be pretty good as well, but I have no real time with that one. Beyond that, there are hollow-base Foster slugs - pretty much point and click for trajectory to 75 yards with the low recoil stuff, being about 8 inches low at 100. Dropping like a rock beyond that, but again, how often does that road get traveled?
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
-96 lbs
Thing is, Federal at least has figured out how to get the improved density effects of a choke simply by changing the wad from the classic four-petal affair that blows wide open as soon as it clears the muzzle to a more solid cup with smaller "air brakes" that release the shot much more gradually, and after it's made it well away from the turbulence of the muzzle blast. Chokes and more specialized lengthening of forcing cones and back-boring are still valid options if you need to improve pattern density with any random ammo. The Flight Control wad gives you that effect without having to expensively alter the basic "gas pipe" barrel that is still perfectly at home with beanbags, slugs, etc... I'm comfortable that it will stay "stray pellet free" out of any shotgun for 25 yards, and have patterned it in a few sexier guns that stretch that to 35.
It's a big part of my lukewarm acceptance of the AR for the job at hand. The stiletto has it's place, but the sledgehammer seems more widely appropriate to the field. Champagne for the special occasion; beer for the humdrum, everyday buzz.
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
I have a Carlson Coyote choke on an 870 supermag and have killed yotes at 70 paces with Remington 3" #4buck.
I have not ever patterned it on paper though.
-96 lbs
"Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
-96 lbs
Buckshot, slugs, 5.56, 9mm. You’ll never fill the needs of a mission with two or three of those options. The scenarios just exponentially multiply.
But you can’t carry it all, all the time. The dichotomy of preparation.