Replies

• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #2

  alphasigmookie said:

  With all the blatant flaunting of this rule going on today it's not a surprise there has been some pushback. I wouldn't be surprised to see some states pass laws that do this. However a judge declaring it doesn't seem like it will hold up.

  It wasn't a judge, it was the AG. I always thought the AG enforced the laws, not create them. The fact that he thinks he has the authority to do this is chilling. If he wins the lawsuit, the precedent is set. 
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• zorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member

  December 2019 edited December 2019 #3

  Precedent has already been set. Kamala Harris and microstamping when she was AG with the California Ministry of Justice.
  

  -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
  
  

  "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."

  )O(
  

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #4

  Different state, but I get your point. 
  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 12,127 Senior Member

  December 2019 #5

  alphasigmookie said:

  With all the blatant flaunting of this rule going on today it's not a surprise there has been some pushback. I wouldn't be surprised to see some states pass laws that do this. However a judge declaring it doesn't seem like it will hold up.

  Statist view- you deserve it for flaunting the rules!
  everyone else- uh, we were just following the law as written.

  To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
  -Mikhail Kalashnikov

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• tennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member

  December 2019 #6

  I find it odd that the states that were the birthplace of freedom in 1776 are now the birthplace of repression, tyranny, and despotism that brought about the American Revolutionary War. Only took about 250 years to go from freedom and a Republic to creeping communists in the statehouses.
  

    “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
  ― Douglas Adams
  

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• zorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member

  December 2019 #7

  tennmike said:

  I find it odd that the states that were the birthplace of freedom in 1776 are now the birthplace of repression, tyranny, and despotism that brought about the American Revolutionary War. Only took about 250 years to go from freedom and a Republic to creeping communists in the statehouses.
  

  
  

  You noticed that too? Very odd indeed.
  

  -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
  
  

  "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."

  )O(
  

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• Bigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member

  December 2019 #8

  So at what point do you define it as a "firearm"?  Do you call any block of 7075 aluminum that's about 9"x5"x2" an unfinished AR-15 lower?  If the block is bigger, do you call it uncut multiple receivers?  Is flat sheet steel an AK-47?
  
  I've seen blank firing prop guns and starter pistols converted to where they can fire standard handgun cartridges.  Not necessarily in safety or with accuracy, but it'll go "bang" and send a bullet downrange at least once.
  
  Where the U.S. calls the receiver a gun, some countries will define it as the barrel, but that's not an answer either.  A musket or shotgun is nothing more than pipe with some creative drilling applied.
  
  All of the above illustrates the idiocy of banning stuff rather than actual crime.

  WWJMBD?
  
  "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee

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• tennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,457 Senior Member

  December 2019 #9

  VA Gov. is shifting money to the prison system in anticipation of incarcerating folks. I HIGHLY suggest that the citizens of VA study up hard on jury nullification and use it to make these anti U.S. Constitution and VA Constitution laws moot. In a trial, the jury is the biggest, baddest, meanest dog in the courtroom. Opposing lawyers are just opposite teams in a contest, and judge is just a referee moving things along. If the law under which the person being tried is unjust, the jury can ignore the evidence and bring back a ruling of 'NOT GUILTY'. Judges haven't charged juries properly in over 40 years. Juries used to be charged with bringing back a verdict after 'judging both the FACTS and the LAW itself. Judges quit doing that when they didn't get the results their biased anuses wanted, so they left out that part about judging the law itself.
  

    “I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
  ― Douglas Adams
  

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #10

  tennmike said:

  VA Gov. is shifting money to the prison system in anticipation of incarcerating folks. I HIGHLY suggest that the citizens of VA study up hard on jury nullification and use it to make these anti U.S. Constitution and VA Constitution laws moot. In a trial, the jury is the biggest, baddest, meanest dog in the courtroom. Opposing lawyers are just opposite teams in a contest, and judge is just a referee moving things along. If the law under which the person being tried is unjust, the jury can ignore the evidence and bring back a ruling of 'NOT GUILTY'. Judges haven't charged juries properly in over 40 years. Juries used to be charged with bringing back a verdict after 'judging both the FACTS and the LAW itself. Judges quit doing that when they didn't get the results their biased anuses wanted, so they left out that part about judging the law itself.
  

  I've mentioned this berfore, but the last time I sat on a jury, the judge stated "If you think the law itself is unjust, you may be excused." 
  
  This squashes nullification. 

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• kansashunter Senior Member Posts: 1,907 Senior Member

  December 2019 #11

  I don't think this will stand a legal challenge. I don't see how they can ban an 80% receiver but I believe they will try to ban anyone from manufacturing a weapon without a license. 

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• BamaakII Posts: 471 Member

  December 2019 #12

  Well next they can ban plastic water bottles since they can be recycled into printing pellets for printing a gun.

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #13

  alphasigmookie said:

  kansashunter said:

  I don't think this will stand a legal challenge. I don't see how they can ban an 80% receiver but I believe they will try to ban anyone from manufacturing a weapon without a license. 

  Seems feasible or at least require serial number and state registration of any manufactured weapon. The "ghost guns" are absolutely going to become a target.
  

  
  

  I know this is going to go over like a led balloon, but frankly I'm not a fan of them and think they probably should be regulated. It's a massive loophole. If I were running a criminal operation I'd be pumping them out like crazy. No need for gun runners or straw purchasers anymore, just a workshop with a single halfway decent machinists I'd I'd have crates full of AR's and glocks to arm my street thugs and bonus they're completely untraceable so no more filing off serial numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mexican cartels didn't have a bunch of workshops churning them out in border areas. Smuggle the guns back the same way they get the drugs in. Sure criminals will always find ways to get their hands on weapons, but no need to make it any easier for them.
  

  
  

  
  Hilarious.
  
  The Cartels are buying 80% receivers and finishing them in machine shops, huh? The Cartels are getting their weaponry from GOVERNMENTS. North and south of the Mexican border. 
  
  Back to regulation of ghost guns...What you are suggesting requires the oversight of every CNC machine/lathe and 3D printer and the oversight of every parts kit sold.  
  
  Let's not forget serial numbers on firearms weren't required prior to 1968. We'll need to demand all guns older than 50 be serialized. 
  
  This is how "we gotta do something" laws creates unintended consequences. We find the loopholes, criminals ignore it altogether, and the government imprisons the poor bastard with the unserialized 1967 Marlin 60. 
  
  Screw that. It's hard enough navigating the laws as they are written now. Why add more BS ineffective laws? 
  
  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• Bigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,465 Senior Member

  December 2019 #14

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know this is going to go over like a led balloon, but frankly I'm not a fan of them and think they probably should be regulated. It's a massive loophole. If I were running a criminal operation I'd be pumping them out like crazy. No need for gun runners or straw purchasers anymore, just a workshop with a single halfway decent machinists I'd I'd have crates full of AR's and glocks to arm my street thugs and bonus they're completely untraceable so no more filing off serial numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if the Mexican cartels didn't have a bunch of workshops churning them out in border areas. Smuggle the guns back the same way they get the drugs in. Sure criminals will always find ways to get their hands on weapons, but no need to make it any easier for them.
  

  
  

  Let's unravel this ball of yarn a little further.
  
  While Alpha may claim the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed at the level of the individual, by this statement, he apparently thinks the government should be able to infringe upon those who manufacture or sell them all it wants. . .
  
  . . .which amounts to infringement on the individual who wants to keep and bear arms, who are, after all, the end-users of these products.
  
  I've said it before and will keep saying it:  Your background checks and waiting periods are an infringement of not only our 2nd Amendment rights, they also presume us guilty until government bureaucracies (of varying agendas) determine we're innocent.  The need for those background checks and waiting periods only exists because YOU KEEP LETTING RECIDIVIST CRIMINALS OUT OF JAIL, AND THEY DO NOTHING TO STOP THE GUY THAT HASN'T BEEN CAUGHT YET!!!
  
  Alpha also misses one key point:  Ummmmm. . .CRIMINALS!  How much are they really going to care if you try to regulate unserialized firearms?  They don't seem to care all that much that cocaine, heroin, and methamphetamine are illegal; the importation of them is illegal; and the manufacturing of them is illegal.
  
  We're regulating the purchase of Sudafed because somebody MIGHT turn it into meth; you're saying you want to regulate Bridgeport because somebody MIGHT make a firearm on one of their mills?
  
  Think it through Alpha.  Think it through.
  
  

  WWJMBD?
  
  "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #15

  Bigslug said:

  
  Think it through Alpha.  Think it through.
  
  

  +100
  
  This philosophy needs to apply to all of us when we think a new law is the answer.
  
  The government has enough god damn power. 
  
  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• zorba Senior Member Posts: 25,092 Senior Member

  December 2019 edited December 2019 #16

  CaliFFL said:

  Bigslug said:

  
  Think it through Alpha.  Think it through.
  
  

  +100
  
  This philosophy needs to apply to all of us when we think a new law is the answer.
  
  The government has enough god damn power. 
  
  
  

  Government is seldom the answer to anything. One thing I don't miss about Commiefornia is the yearly wrap-up on the local news about all the "TOUGH NEW LAWS!" that take affect the next year. Bah!
  

  -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"
  
  

  "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."

  )O(
  

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #17

  Items people wanted to ban/regulate because the nickname (or mythology) was scary. These are off the top of my head and in my lifetime. And I heard the same excuse (these will hurt our cause) if we defended the items. 
  
  Bumpstocks 
  High capacity magazines
  Semi auto assault rifles
  bayonet lugs
  grenade launchers
  barrel shrouds
  hollow points
  cop killer bullets
  Glocks (undetectable in airport xray machines)
  ghost guns
  body armor
  50 caliber rifles
  
  The list is always changing and always growing. The antis rely on the uninformed public and the Fudds to support banning the scary-sounding stuff.
  
  **** that. No more compromise. No more compliance. 
  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• Accipiter New Member Posts: 898 Senior Member

  December 2019 #18

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know I'm not going to win this one here, but this stuff is bad juju just like the bumpstock crap. It hurts our cause far more than it helps. 
  
  

  Couldn’t one say the same thing about an ar15.  Where exactly do you stop giving up rights because something “looks bad” to people who just want to take away all of your rights anyway.  Every time we give ground they start after the next piece of ground.  F that.
  

  Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.
  
  ECHO...ECHO....echo...
  
  Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
  
  Karma.........It’s a bitch.

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• Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,261 Senior Member

  December 2019 #19

  Accipiter said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know I'm not going to win this one here, but this stuff is bad juju just like the bumpstock crap. It hurts our cause far more than it helps. 
  
  

  Couldn’t one say the same thing about an ar15.  Where exactly do you stop giving up rights because something “looks bad” to people who just want to take away all of your rights anyway.  Every time we give ground they start after the next piece of .

  Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

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• CaliFFL Senior Member Posts: 5,486 Senior Member

  December 2019 #20

  alphasigmookie said:

  Accipiter said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know I'm not going to win this one here, but this stuff is bad juju just like the bumpstock crap. It hurts our cause far more than it helps. 
  
  

  Couldn’t one say the same thing about an ar15.  Where exactly do you stop giving up rights because something “looks bad” to people who just want to take away all of your rights anyway.  Every time we give ground they start after the next piece of ground.  F that.
  

  I for one think there should be SOME laws that allow cops to stop bad guys with guns before they shoot someone. Concealed carry licenses are a good example. I'm very much in favor of licensing and generally against "constitutional carry". Carry around a gun with a good guy card, good for you, go on your way. Carry a gun without one, welp you just bought yourself a ticket to the klink. Good guys rarely have a problem getting a license, bad guys rarely bother.
  
  Today in a constitutional carry state, a cop stops a car full of thugs wearing known gang colors and symbols who are all carrying unmarked glocks manufactured from 80% lowers all he can do is send them on their way with a smile. Now when they wait half an hour and go execute their previously planned driveby they can just ditch the barrels from their ghost guns and the cops won't have any way to tracing the crime back to them. I'd very much like to hear from some of the LEO's on the board about how a lot of this stuff has the potential to affect how they do their jobs. It certainly seems to me that 2A proponents have done a heck of a lot to make it much easier to be a criminal these days. 
  
  
  

  
  So...a bunch of Americans riding in a car, wearing disapproved clothing, exercising their 2A rights, and you want the cops to arrest them. Everything else is just statist fantasy. 
  
  Think it through Alpha. Think it through. 
  
  
  
  

  When our governing officials dismiss due process as mere semantics, when they exercise powers they don’t have and ignore duties they actually bear, and when we let them get away with it, we have ceased to be our own rulers.
  
  Adam J. McCleod
  
  

  
  

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• Accipiter New Member Posts: 898 Senior Member

  December 2019 #21

  alphasigmookie said:

  Accipiter said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know I'm not going to win this one here, but this stuff is bad juju just like the bumpstock crap. It hurts our cause far more than it helps. 
  
  

  Couldn’t one say the same thing about an ar15.  Where exactly do you stop giving up rights because something “looks bad” to people who just want to take away all of your rights anyway.  Every time we give ground they start after the next piece of ground.  F that.
  

  I for one think there should be SOME laws that allow cops to stop bad guys with guns before they shoot someone. Concealed carry licenses are a good example. I'm very much in favor of licensing and generally against "constitutional carry". Carry around a gun with a good guy card, good for you, go on your way. Carry a gun without one, welp you just bought yourself a ticket to the klink. Good guys rarely have a problem getting a license, bad guys rarely bother.
  
  Today in a constitutional carry state, a cop stops a car full of thugs wearing known gang colors and symbols who are all carrying unmarked glocks manufactured from 80% lowers all he can do is send them on their way with a smile. Now when they wait half an hour and go execute their previously planned driveby they can just ditch the barrels from their ghost guns and the cops won't have any way to tracing the crime back to them. I'd very much like to hear from some of the LEO's on the board about how a lot of this stuff has the potential to affect how they do their jobs. It certainly seems to me that 2A proponents have done a heck of a lot to make it much easier to be a criminal these days. 
  
  
  

  They can ditch the barrel from their factory made Glocks just as easy.  Straw man alert, Straw man alert, straw man alert.

  Apparently free thought is punished, and conformity is required, while peckerless cowards run the show.
  
  ECHO...ECHO....echo...
  
  Ah......One savors the hypocrisy!
  
  Karma.........It’s a bitch.

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• Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 12,261 Senior Member

  December 2019 #22

  Accipiter said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  Accipiter said:

  alphasigmookie said:

  I know I'm not going to win this one here, but this stuff is bad juju just like the bumpstock crap. It hurts our cause far more than it helps. 
  
  

  Couldn’t one say the same thing about an ar15.  Where exactly do you stop giving up rights because something “looks bad” to people who just want to take away all of your rights anyway.  Every time we give ground they start after the next piece of ground.  F that.
  

  I for one think there should be SOME laws that allow cops to stop bad guys with guns before they shoot someone. Concealed carry licenses are a good example. I'm very much in favor of licensing and generally against "constitutional carry". Carry around a gun with a good guy card, good for you, go on your way. Carry a gun without one, welp you just bought yourself a ticket to the klink. Good guys rarely have a problem getting a license, bad guys rarely bother.
  
  Today in a constitutional carry state, a cop stops a car full of thugs wearing known gang colors and symbols who are all carrying unmarked glocks manufactured from 80% lowers all he can do is send them on their way with a smile. Now when they wait half an hour and go execute their previously planned driveby they can just ditch the barrels from their ghost guns and the cops won't have any way to tracing the crime back to them. I'd very much like to hear from some of the LEO's on the board about how a lot of this stuff has the potential to affect how they do their jobs. It certainly seems to me that 2A proponents have done a heck of a lot to make it much easier to be a criminal these days. 
  
  
  

  They can ditch the barrel from their factory made Glocks just as easy.  Straw man alert, Straw man alert, straw man alert.

  FYI guys, a gun may be connected to a specific gun by more than the barrel.
  
  Alpha I get what you are saying, BUT, where would it stop?  How many people in our country are criminals compared to law abiding?  One of your graphs will show how many good people you are going to make jump through hoops

  Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5

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