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277 Sig Fury

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  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,811 Senior Member
    And again 3,250 with the same bullet with a WSM at 65,000.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    Wasn't the 6.8 SPC  developed to replace the 5.56 a while back?  Didn't work, despite all the Tactical Hype.
    America's tastes don't run toward the .270 for some reason, but we emight accept the Fury round if it is adopted by the military.  Which it won't be. 
    I guess I'm pretty well sated on "new" rounds. Will a new round do anything an existing round won't?  No, I don't think so.  Will it do it better on paper?  Probably, but with paper you're only measuring a narrow window of performance.  Marginally better, but there's a price to be paid, which I'm unwilling to pay.
    My personal feelings are (1) We've got cartridges already that will approach the level of performance and (2) If one wants a boost in performance, go for it and report back.  I've always believed if you're going to play, you've got to pay...like a new rifle and an obscure round that may not be in existence next year at this time..
     


    Gene I can't argue with your approach to this. At least you didn't say it's all horse hockey. It may well be but we need to step back and see where it goes. It may crash and burn. But I think there's something to the idea. The .277 bore aside, the idea of the case may have promise. I have been waiting for a break through in powder technology, but maybe that won't happen. It did partially with the superformance powders and loads, But if we are at the end of new stuff in powders this stronger case could be the answer to get higher velocities. We won't know until it's tried. that's how progress happens. Weird ideas have given birth to some very great advancements.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    And again 3,250 with the same bullet with a WSM at 65,000.

    Yeah but how much more powder did that take? This is with a more traditional powder volume but with a faster powder.
    And you're comparing apples to oranges. If you make a case like this with the volume of the .270 WSM you may increase that velocity from 3250 to 3500.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    The 6.8 Angry Rabbit!
    I'd buy that even if it sucked!
    :D
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • MichakavMichakav Senior Member Posts: 2,732 Senior Member
    I could get behind a .284 or .264 Fury, but definitely not a .277. 
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #37
    Outfit down in Texas is supposed to be producing polymer cartridge cases before the end of 2020 in mass.

    They're said to dissipate heat so well, they can be scooped bare handed at ejection from full auto fire. No small improvement for a machine gun. Maybe the machines can feed military tests??? I don't know??? If so could be a boon for adopting something new not in already in the supply chain. Maybe...
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,811 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    GunNut said:
    And again 3,250 with the same bullet with a WSM at 65,000.

    Yeah but how much more powder did that take? This is with a more traditional powder volume but with a faster powder.
    And you're comparing apples to oranges. If you make a case like this with the volume of the .270 WSM you may increase that velocity from 3250 to 3500.
    Right, so instead of using an established case/platform we go to a proprietary case/platform and lose 250fps.  Oh baby! Where do I sign up!!!!!

    We already had better performance in a short action and all we needed was a larger breech in the bolt face.  This “advancement” is just stupid...
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    I have a bunch of Mausers as in 98s. That's a 121 YEAR OLD design..I love them and am comfortable with them, but I know it's not the end game. I know it's only a matter of time that there's going to be a major technology change. I'll probably go to my grave shooting old outdated stuff but i'm not going to hold back progress just because.
    I'm still waiting for the day I can walk into a gunstore and walk out with one of these.
    This would be real progress. 😁
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #40
    Again, it's about the ballistics.
    There have been all kinds of numbers circulating, but the facts are that a 140-grain bullet will attain a velocity of more than 3,000 FPS from a 16″ barrel.

    Not a 22" or 24" but 16" from a cartridge that's roughly the same as the .308 Winchester.

    (6.5 CM left and .308 Win right)

    From a logistical standpoint, it's attractive. You won't have to do too much retooling to get the new machine gun off the ground.

    I'm still dubious of the barrel life though and that gun is gonna run hot no matter what. If they can mass produce these rounds pretty cheap they may be onto something.

    If they solve the barrel thing.

    If they make it reliable.

    If they can do it cheap.

    If, if, if... Time will tell.

    Solve all the potential issues and then I'd be excited.

    Btw, if these guys were really trying to sell this cartridge they should have called it a 7mm (.277"~7.0358mm) (.264"~6.7056mm) (.284"~7.2136mm) and (6.8mm~.267717"). From the fact that there are 25.4 mm in 1 inch. It's just a proportion.

    6.8/25.4~.267717/1

    Or  .277×25.4=7.0358

    Just saying they could have made the claim it's an actual 7mm. It would've been a good marketing strategy.

    Just my two bits 😁


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #41
    I acknowledge that it's a good (on paper) round, but what I don't understand is what it's for, seeing as we already have perfectly good rounds.  I know, I'm an old curmudgeon  and I pay allegiance to that trait by opposing a lot of new rounds which are probably fine rounds but then I see people endorsing them.  With that, I see $$$$ as a motivation.
    I was quite vociferously opposed to the 6.8 SPC, because I saw it as a way to make money for some tactical people rather than an essential improvement over the 5.56.  Does it perform better?  Probably.  Is that extra performance worth the cost of switching ammo, buying new guns for that caliber?  Probably not.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,923 Senior Member
    This round is not being tested to replace the 5.56 ammo for M4s. It is being developed to be belt fed . To me that means to replace or be used like the SAW is now. 
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,743 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #43
    To do so introduces a new and third round to deal with out in the field...5.56 (rifle) 7.62 (MG) and now the Fury?  I'm against it. 
    I'll repeat what I said above:   Is that extra performance worth the cost of switching ammo, buying new guns for that caliber?  Probably not.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 16,928 Senior Member
    Color me skeptical...the beauty of the SAW, is that it uses the same ammo being toted by every other member of the Squad...can even use magazines if necessary....
    Adding a weapons system that requires uses a unique cartridge doesn't seem all that well thought out.

    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 6,749 Senior Member
    Practicality won't prevent testing if there's money to be made.
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,096 Senior Member
    Practicality won't prevent testing if there's money to be made.
    That, sir, is a FACT
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #47
    GunNut said:
    snake284 said:
    GunNut said:
    And again 3,250 with the same bullet with a WSM at 65,000.

    Yeah but how much more powder did that take? This is with a more traditional powder volume but with a faster powder.
    And you're comparing apples to oranges. If you make a case like this with the volume of the .270 WSM you may increase that velocity from 3250 to 3500.
    Right, so instead of using an established case/platform we go to a proprietary case/platform and lose 250fps.  Oh baby! Where do I sign up!!!!!

    We already had better performance in a short action and all we needed was a larger breech in the bolt face.  This “advancement” is just stupid...
    Dude you missed my point by a mile. You're comparing the Sig Fury case which has about the same capacity as a .308 Winchester case in the low to mid 50 grains, whereas a WSM has nearly 80 grains capacity. If they built a WSM case along the lines of the Fury it could probably achieve 3500 FPS with the 140 grain whereas the Standard WSM is around 3200 FPS. That would be scorching hot. But again by comparing the Fury to a case of WSM capacity is Oranges to Apples.

    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,638 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #48
    What kind of issues may occur when mating two different metals together on a case with high pressure? And, one of the metals will rust when exposed to moisture. I have to wonder how that junction between the metals and that proprietary powder will do with arctic and desert temps, not to mention altitude changes..
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #49
    Jayhawker said:
    Color me skeptical...the beauty of the SAW, is that it uses the same ammo being toted by every other member of the Squad...can even use magazines if necessary....
    Adding a weapons system that requires uses a unique cartridge doesn't seem all that well thought out.

    Since the size of the cartridge is on par with the .308 win, I'm guessing it would replace a GPMG like the M240.
    I don't know how they plan to use it or how they envision it being used. As an M240 replacement, it would probably be vehicle mounted and used to stop other vehicles or troops in the open. I really don't see it as a door to door room clearing tool right now. Maybe, if it's successful, it could lead to a smaller variant which would take aim at replacing the SAW.
    Still too early to tell if this one has a future. Give it a couple years.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • snake284snake284 Senior Member Posts: 22,394 Senior Member
    I'm not bringing a .270 argument into this. I suppose they have their reasons for wanting that bore diameter. I'm arguing against the opposition to the case and the technology behind 80,000 PSI without further trial and answers. I think this is one you and I agree on. I'm not saying it will work or fail. I'm saying same as you, give it time. See where it goes. If it works out then that's a major step in the right direction.
    Daddy, what's an enabler?
    Son that's somebody with nothing to do with his time but keep me in trouble with mom.
  • tennmiketennmike Senior Member Posts: 27,398 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #51
    They should quit pissin' around. Make the action 2.5" in diameter with a 2.25" diameter barrel 20" long, and a MASSIVE 3 lug bolt. Run the pressure up to 100,000 psi and be done with it. At least the bullets would stop bouncing off chipmunks at 50 yards and pissing them off. :)
      I refuse to answer that question on the grounds that I don't know the answer”
    ― Douglas Adams
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,811 Senior Member
    snake284 said:
    GunNut said:
    snake284 said:
    GunNut said:
    And again 3,250 with the same bullet with a WSM at 65,000.

    Yeah but how much more powder did that take? This is with a more traditional powder volume but with a faster powder.
    And you're comparing apples to oranges. If you make a case like this with the volume of the .270 WSM you may increase that velocity from 3250 to 3500.
    Right, so instead of using an established case/platform we go to a proprietary case/platform and lose 250fps.  Oh baby! Where do I sign up!!!!!

    We already had better performance in a short action and all we needed was a larger breech in the bolt face.  This “advancement” is just stupid...
    Dude you missed my point by a mile. You're comparing the Sig Fury case which has about the same capacity as a .308 Winchester case in the low to mid 50 grains, whereas a WSM has nearly 80 grains capacity. If they built a WSM case along the lines of the Fury it could probably achieve 3500 FPS with the 140 grain whereas the Standard WSM is around 3200 FPS. That would be scorching hot. But again by comparing the Fury to a case of WSM capacity is Oranges to Apples.

    Dude you missed MY point by a mile.  I couldn’t care less of what the military does for a new machine gun.  I’m addressing potential civilian applications.  Why would I ever buy or build a rifle in this chambering when I can pick up (which I won’t) a rifle in 270WSM and do better?
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 5,811 Senior Member
    And why complicate life and manufacturing by making a dual material case when it would be easier and cheaper to just do a solid steel case?  But again military budgets allow for all sort of nonsense.  And you have to go through a whole lot of crazy before you find a gem.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Uncle FesterUncle Fester Senior Member Posts: 1,373 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    And why complicate life and manufacturing by making a dual material case when it would be easier and cheaper to just do a solid steel case?  But again military budgets allow for all sort of nonsense.  And you have to go through a whole lot of crazy before you find a gem.
    A solid steel case would weigh more.
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,769 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    And why complicate life and manufacturing by making a dual material case when it would be easier and cheaper to just do a solid steel case?  But again military budgets allow for all sort of nonsense.  And you have to go through a whole lot of crazy before you find a gem.
    A solid steel case would weigh more.
    Well, since the density of brass is greater than the density of steel,  I doubt that very much.
  • TugarTugar Senior Member Posts: 2,222 Senior Member
    CHIRO1989 said:
    What kind of issues may occur when mating two different metals together on a case with high pressure? And, one of the metals will rust when exposed to moisture. I have to wonder how that junction between the metals and that proprietary powder will do with arctic and desert temps, not to mention altitude changes..
     
    Actually the bottom of the case is stainless from what I read on a few pages. 
    Socialism is a philosophy of failure, the creed of ignorance, and the gospel of envy, its inherent virtue is the equal sharing of misery.
    Winston Churchill
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 12,638 Senior Member
    Tugar said:
    CHIRO1989 said:
    What kind of issues may occur when mating two different metals together on a case with high pressure? And, one of the metals will rust when exposed to moisture. I have to wonder how that junction between the metals and that proprietary powder will do with arctic and desert temps, not to mention altitude changes..
     
    Actually the bottom of the case is stainless from what I read on a few pages. 
    Yes, but even stainless rusts eventually with poor care, I would think field conditions qualify as poor care after a bit of time.
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • PegasusPegasus Senior Member Posts: 2,769 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    Again, it's about the ballistics.
    There have been all kinds of numbers circulating, but the facts are that a 140-grain bullet will attain a velocity of more than 3,000 FPS from a 16″ barrel.

    Not a 22" or 24" but 16" from a cartridge that's roughly the same as the .308 Winchester.

    (6.5 CM left and .308 Win right)

    From a logistical standpoint, it's attractive. You won't have to do too much retooling to get the new machine gun off the ground.

    I'm still dubious of the barrel life though and that gun is gonna run hot no matter what. If they can mass produce these rounds pretty cheap they may be onto something.

    If they solve the barrel thing.

    If they make it reliable.

    If they can do it cheap.

    If, if, if... Time will tell.

    Solve all the potential issues and then I'd be excited.

    Btw, if these guys were really trying to sell this cartridge they should have called it a 7mm (.277"~7.0358mm) (.264"~6.7056mm) (.284"~7.2136mm) and (6.8mm~.267717"). From the fact that there are 25.4 mm in 1 inch. It's just a proportion.

    6.8/25.4~.267717/1

    Or  .277×25.4=7.0358

    Just saying they could have made the claim it's an actual 7mm. It would've been a good marketing strategy.

    Just my two bits 😁


    Your two bits aren't worth anything because you're all confused.  There is a difference between bore diameter and bullet diameter.  For example,  a .308 bullet is used with a .300 bore  (aka 30 caliber).   The extra .008 is for the groove diameter.  The grooves are usually .004 deep, hence the extra .008.  

    A .277 bullet goes through a .269 bore, which is 6.8mm.  Imagine that.

    A .264 bullet goes through a .256 bore, which is 6.5mm.  What a shock.

    The groove diameter of a 5.56mm bore is 0.224.

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 3,969 Senior Member
    Did you not read the last part at all?
    You're still struggling with the silly remarks of others. 😉
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,047 Senior Member
    Spk....

    I wish we worked at the same place.

    That's all.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
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