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Texas church shooting

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  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,684 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Spk said:
    ...
    The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. 
    ...
    .........
    The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life. 
    ............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
    Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.

    jmo
    I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you. 

    Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing  the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves. 

    I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes. 
    That’s my view of this.  Just objective observation and while I have a Christian sense of loss of a good man I also have no particular emotional attachment to what happened except for what I can learn from it.  Every man has his own life to live.  I’m only in charge and only have to answer for mine.
    He gave his life protecting the rest of the church.  Only the ushers/ security staff were harmed, and while the two ushers died they distracted the evil from the flock long enough for the last usher to neutralize him.

    “No greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”. John 15:13

    It sucks for the families of those ushers, but they died protecting the flock.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Spk said:
    ...
    The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. 
    ...
    .........
    The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life. 
    ............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
    Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.

    jmo
    I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you. 

    Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing  the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves. 

    I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes. 
    That’s my view of this.  Just objective observation and while I have a Christian sense of loss of a good man I also have no particular emotional attachment to what happened except for what I can learn from it.  Every man has his own life to live.  I’m only in charge and only have to answer for mine.
    He gave his life protecting the rest of the church.  Only the ushers/ security staff were harmed, and while the two ushers died they distracted the evil from the flock long enough for the last usher to neutralize him.

    “No greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”. John 15:13

    It sucks for the families of those ushers, but they died protecting the flock.
    And to this I agree as well. 

    And, what can we learn from their mistakes so we don’t have to express that love needlessly. 

    I’ll die for you if I have to.  But, I’d just as soon hug it out to let you know.  Given the choice. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    Spk said:
    ...
    The man that stopped the threat had the benifit of the murderer being distracted. The two victims had the benifit of nothing except their own courage. They had the blink of an eye to react under the watching eyes of a murderer, and the gaping muzzle of a shotgun. One made a fumbling mistake. In his case it was not indecision that was the mistake. The other hesistated. 
    ...
    .........
    The blink of an eye is all you'll have to save your own life. 
    ............The victims seem to be trying to process the entirety of the situation before deciding on a course of action. Not a good place to be. I have no doubt of their bravery but their reaction time placed them in jeopardy.
    Forethought, practice, repetition. Decide beforehand and stick to the plan.

    jmo
    I agree. The victims were behind the power curve and trying to come up with a plan when they should have been executing one. It’s what happens when you don’t train enough or plan enough so as to instinctively act when a situation unfolds in front of you. 

    Harshly and truthfully judging/critiquing  the mistakes of others is how we prevent making them ourselves. 

    I hold no remorse for doing so. I want to live. If I die in a hail of gunfire some day........please learn from my mistakes. 
    That’s my view of this.  Just objective observation and while I have a Christian sense of loss of a good man I also have no particular emotional attachment to what happened except for what I can learn from it.  Every man has his own life to live.  I’m only in charge and only have to answer for mine.
    He gave his life protecting the rest of the church.  Only the ushers/ security staff were harmed, and while the two ushers died they distracted the evil from the flock long enough for the last usher to neutralize him.

    “No greater love hath no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends”. John 15:13

    It sucks for the families of those ushers, but they died protecting the flock.
    I agree wholeheartedly.  I’m sure those he loved enough to lay his life on the line for are highly appreciative of his sacrifice.  I intend to learn from him and hopefully apply this knowledge to protecting those I love, so when I go to meet my maker I can say I did my best taking care of those he entrusted to me.
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,521 Senior Member
    JerryBobCo posted another thread on this topic. I moved it to the 2A forum since it seemed to be following that track.

    Post SD comments here. 2A/Political over there.

    I hope this doesn't become too confusing.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 408 Member
    edited December 2019 #66
    Zed, don't if you have seen Mr. Wilson's comments but he said the guy was on their radar the minute he came in the church.  He had a wig and fake beard and long coat. So if was on their radar, their security plan kind of failed or was flawed at least.  But besides what has been said about mistakes were made, training and ability failures for Vic#1 who was like 70, what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    BamaakII said:
    Zed, don't if you have seen Mr. Wilson's comments but he said the guy was on their radar the minute he came in the church.  He had a wig and fake beard and long coat. So if was on their radar, their security plan kind of failed or was flawed at least.  But besides what has been said about mistakes were made, training and ability failures for Vic#1 who was like 70, what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

    I’m not zed but one of the reasons I’ve taken to carrying a gun on a shoulder rig under a jacket at church is I can easily and without attracting ANY attention cross my arms and have my hand on the grip of my gun while still keeping it concealed.  If I had seen this guy walk into my church I would have spent the whole service making sure he was in my field of vision at all times.  My hands would have been on my gun the second he stood up.  I hate profiling but he just looked all sorts of sketchy...
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,543 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #68
    BamaakII said:
    ...
    what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

    This is the challenge. But I think I the name of safety, confronting the individual in a polite "interview" would've been appropriate. LEO do it all the time. If you see someone new at your church welcome them, then start asking questions. Start with asking their name and where there from. This interview process isn't just about starting a bio but to see how willing someone is in sharing information. It doesn't take long at all to determine if someone is on the level, deceptive, distraught, confused or downright dangerous.
    We've talked a lot about what the folks inside did right and wrong but it shouldn't have gotten that far. The security team said he was on the radar right from the get go but I suspect, in the interest of being a welcoming environment, they allowed him in anyway.
    I'm sorry but if someone is wearing an obvious disguise and a long coat for no apparent reason he shouldn't have been allowed in.
    Churches are a welcoming places but the safety of everyone inside falls on the security team. He should've been confronted, "interviewed", at the door. If anything is going to happen, let it happen there where there's more control. And away from most of the parishioners.

    Jmo
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    edited December 2019 #69
    Spk said:
    BamaakII said:
    ...
    what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

    This is the challenge. But I think I the name of safety, confronting the individual in a polite "interview" would've been appropriate. LEO do it all the time. If you see someone new at your church welcome them, then start asking questions. Start with asking their name and where there from. This interview process isn't just about starting a bio but to see how willing someone is in sharing information. It doesn't take long at all to determine if someone is on the level, deceptive, distraught, confused or downright dangerous.
    We've talked a lot about what the folks inside did right and wrong but it shouldn't have gotten that far. The security team said he was on the radar right from the get go but I suspect, in the interest of being a welcoming environment, they allowed him in anyway.
    I'm sorry but if someone is wearing an obvious disguise and a long coat for no apparent reason he shouldn't have been allowed in.
    Churches are a welcoming places but the safety of everyone inside falls on the security team. He should've been confronted, "interviewed", at the door. If anything is going to happen, let it happen there where there's more control. And away from most of the parishioners.

    Jmo
    You’re hired!!

    (Now I will go through your well put post and add my thoughts or take away.)
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    BamaakII said:
    Zed, don't if you have seen Mr. Wilson's comments but he said the guy was on their radar the minute he came in the church.  He had a wig and fake beard and long coat. So if was on their radar, their security plan kind of failed or was flawed at least.  But besides what has been said about mistakes were made, training and ability failures for Vic#1 who was like 70, what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

     I hate profiling but he just looked all sorts of sketchy...
    I don’t. It’s how I stay alive. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #71
    Spk said:
    BamaakII said:
    ...
    what better "plan" could they have had short of stop and frisk.  What do you do when someone is suspicious?  Chuches are welcoming places to all.

    This is the challenge. But I think I the name of safety, confronting the individual in a polite "interview" would've been appropriate. LEO do it all the time. If you see someone new at your church welcome them, then start asking questions. Start with asking their name and where there from. This interview process isn't just about starting a bio but to see how willing someone is in sharing information. It doesn't take long at all to determine if someone is on the level, deceptive, distraught, confused or downright dangerous.

    We have already been discussing that very thing with my church crew. The “nice guys” are worried about coming off to abrupt because “church is an inviting place”. But all the LE guys agree a polite “greeting” should occur for suspicious individuals. BUT.....it should be done outside the doors if possible (or at least the foyer) and it should be done in pairs as discretely as possible. One talking and one observing (ready) from an oblique angle. Typical “L” formation. 
    Church is an inviting place. But don’t take the appearance of sheep to expect a soft target. I got no problem being a butt if I think you a threat. 

    We've talked a lot about what the folks inside did right and wrong but it shouldn't have gotten that far. The security team said he was on the radar right from the get go but I suspect, in the interest of being a welcoming environment, they allowed him in anyway.
    I'm sorry but if someone is wearing an obvious disguise and a long coat for no apparent reason he shouldn't have been allowed in.

    It’s hard to express in text. But, I will be nice until you deserve more than such and THAT can happen in an instance. 
    Plain and simple, that dude should have never made it into the sanctuary if he was on their radar.  There should have been a plan in place to deal with questionable folks in the foyer. 

    Churches are a welcoming places but the safety of everyone inside falls on the security team. He should've been confronted, "interviewed", at the door. If anything is going to happen, let it happen there where there's more control. And away from most of the parishioners.

    Jmo

    Again, I heartily agree. 
    The group of volunteers at my church are comprised of active and retired LE, Military, and a few motivated CCW individuals. 
    We believe in layers.  Our church has male greeters outside the doors that lead to the sanctuary who welcome folks, present a smiling and kind face and open the door for folks.  They are the first layer of screening.
    Just inside the each glass door is another man. Less of a greeter, he is there to back up and support the “screener” if needed and provide security in the foyer while smiling and being polite to everyone. 
    There are “pretty faces” inside the foyer who hand out the daily bulletin engage in conversation and generally take attention away from the men providing security. 
    At a specified time, when the service is scheduled to begin, all side doors are locked from outside entry and signs placed which recommend “Please use the front door”. 
    Now, any entry into the sanctuary is funneled to specific doors that can be observed and controlled by those providing foyer security. If you’re late, you still get the same polite greeting. You just can’t flank us once the service starts. 
    Inside the actual sanctuary, all volunteers have their respective areas of responsibility. 
    Any non-regular that arrives who makes you want to go.......hmmmm......a text is sent out to all and they get a couple shadows. 

    Since organization, only a couple individual have ever made us go hmmm and they required nothing more than shadows. Anyone who would have “raised red flags” would NOT have been allowed inside the church. Much less pass the foyer. 
    Only one homeless person (we have programs to help those folks), who was drunk and belligerent has tried to enter the service and he was denied entry and local LE called.
    All volunteers are dressed and act normally and I promise you, half the congregation doesn’t know what they are really doing. 

    My church is a welcoming place. But God help you (literally) if you mean us harm. 

    I carry a full size Glock (& reload) and an AR-Pistol (& reloads) to church when I go. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    My thinking right now is that the victims and perhaps several others including Jack Wilson had the gunman pegged as sususpicious. But the victims were either ill-prepared or not capable of dealing with such a situation. Their proximity and positions in relation to the gunman, if my assumption is correct, is a very unfortunate traggety. It seems certain that a few simple preperations could have greatly improved their chances of survival.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    My thinking right now is that the victims and perhaps several others including Jack Wilson had the gunman pegged as sususpicious. But the victims were either ill-prepared or not capable of dealing with such a situation. Their proximity and positions in relation to the gunman, if my assumption is correct, is a very unfortunate traggety. It seems certain that a few simple preperations could have greatly improved their chances of survival.
    I agree. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”

    To this.....I have to ask, why?
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,664 Senior Member
    I profile everybody I pass on the street.

    Sorry.

    Mike
    Me too...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 22,374 Senior Member
    I profile everybody I pass on the street.

    Sorry.

    Mike
    Me 3
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #78
    Zee said:
    And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”

    To this.....I have to ask, why?
    Because being a minority I’ve been the “victim” of profiling and it has not been fun.  But when I’m being purely objective I certainly understand the value of it...
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    I have been victim of profiling and they were right.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 7,673 Senior Member
    I profile everyone I look at sideways....

    Anyhow,

    The next question is, is this enough to change the way you practice and train? I know I took some heat for shooting baselines at 25 yards from the 7 foot believers here. No animosity, you do what you want to. I am still going to bullseye at 25 and 50 yards along with doing some draw and fire and multiple target stuff and the occasional 100 yard artillery practice.

    I am pretty confident I could have made that shot with the compact 9 with as much time as the shooter had from the same position. Not sure about the position of V1. Sitting draw isnt something I worked in, yet.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    I think I could make a 35' shot under stress center mass. Head shot? No.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 11,749 Senior Member
    The range (indoor) I shoot handguns at the most has a max distance of 75 feet.  I do about 40% of my shooting at that distance. That is why I have been carrying the Shield more than the G43, because beyond 35 feet my group is all over the target with the Glock.

    Like many I always imagined worse case scenario to be a give me your wallet or get out of the car and that was what I practiced for. 

    Mall, School, Movie Theater shootings are an option I have trained for the last 2 years.  The two victims in this church did their best.  V1 was fumbling V2 appears to be attempting to talk the shooter down.

    Zee said it best. In a  couple words:  Have a plan, observe. Work together if possible and execute the plan. Be fluid if needed. Never hesitate
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,721 Senior Member
    I could do that shot the question is how do you practice the shot under stress. I was shot at one time and it was pretty much sheer panic.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    I profile everyone I look at sideways....

    Anyhow,

    The next question is, is this enough to change the way you practice and train? I know I took some heat for shooting baselines at 25 yards from the 7 foot believers here. No animosity, you do what you want to. I am still going to bullseye at 25 and 50 yards along with doing some draw and fire and multiple target stuff and the occasional 100 yard artillery practice.

    I am pretty confident I could have made that shot with the compact 9 with as much time as the shooter had from the same position. Not sure about the position of V1. Sitting draw isnt something I worked in, yet.
    On profiling, my hair tingles when I meet certain folks and I believe that would be profiling, so they garner my attention swiftly for whatever reasons my mind said don’t loose this dude.  But I’m more of an equal opportunity kind of guy and subscribe to Mad Dog’s wisdom.



    As far as training for that shot, people get rattled by distance because of lack of training/practice.  If you can keep your shots in a nice tight cluster at 5 yards you can certainly make that shot.  You need to practice at shooting longer distances more to convince yourself you can do it than anything else.  I have not looked at yardage markers when I train with my pistols in years.  No yardage markers in a gunfight, no?
  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 408 Member
    I usually practice on steel at as much as 50 yards with my carry guns.  I do better at distance with the .45 shield vs the 9mm.  I don't think I would try a long distance head shot if I had the option of centermass.  USPSA the longest shot is 35 yards and it's not a problem hitting CM.  But when it's a required head shot, I don't do so well.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,543 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”

    To this.....I have to ask, why?
    Because being a minority I’ve been the “victim” of profiling and it has not been fun.  But when I’m being purely objective I certainly understand the value of it...
    Because the word "profiling" has taken on a negative racial component over the years, I'll just use the phrase "Make an assessment of." Or "To size up."
    I do it all the time and there's no doubt it's done to me. There's a reason for the phrase, "First impressions matter." You're being assessed by other people. They just don't call it Profiling.
    In certain occupations you learn to size up people pretty quick. It's a survival mechanism.
    I still do it today. It's not a racial thing, it's a safety thing.


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,833 Senior Member
    People that shoot competitively in timed fire have the practice under stress. The rest of us are in the I hope I can if I have to world. 
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    People that shoot competitively in timed fire have the practice under stress. The rest of us are in the I hope I can if I have to world. 
    Negative!!!!

    Get a shot timer. Set a standard. Practice to that standard. Raise the standard. Practices some more. Push until the wheels come off the bus. 

    A shot timer is a wonderful tool. 

    If that don’t help. Have your son stand behind you with the shot timer and heckle you in the process. Or your girlfriend. Or dad. Or whoever. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    GunNut said:
    Zee said:
    And just to reiterate something said by GunNut, “I hate profiling.....”

    To this.....I have to ask, why?
    Because being a minority I’ve been the “victim” of profiling and it has not been fun.  But when I’m being purely objective I certainly understand the value of it...
    Because the word "profiling" has taken on a negative racial component over the years, I'll just use the phrase "Make an assessment of." Or "To size up."
    I do it all the time and there's no doubt it's done to me. There's a reason for the phrase, "First impressions matter." You're being assessed by other people. They just don't call it Profiling.
    In certain occupations you learn to size up people pretty quick. It's a survival mechanism.
    I still do it today. It's not a racial thing, it's a safety thing.


    I profile/evaluate/assess/judge/ the crap out of everyone I meet/see in daily life. 

    Threat?  Non-threat?  Threat?  Non-threat?

    EVERYONE!  

    I walk through life with my head on a swivel. And I don’t have to look like some tactical junkie to do so. I’m just......aware, conscious, alert. 

    Every door, or portal that I pass through  gets a quick scene survey before proceeding. Walmart entrance. Grocery store exit. Getting out of my car in a parking lot. Everything gets a 360 view and I don’t have to stop and stare. Looking like a dumbass in the process. Just........be aware. 

    And every person in that view is getting profiled and judged to determine if more attention should be paid to them. 

    It’s quick. It’s natural. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 26,022 Senior Member
    Hell, I don’t walk through a department store or grocery store without looking down an isle I’m passing. 

    Left/Right
    Left/Right

    I’m looking. Just put a confused face on like you’re lost and have no clue what you’re looking for or where it could be found. You know.........natural!  We’re dudes. We don’t shop!!!
    😁
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,521 Senior Member
    You just described me. Especially the confused look.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
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