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Texas church shooting

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  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 11,463 Senior Member
    Totally agreed on the competition.  Just as long as you don’t practice bad habits.

    Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun.  Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort.  But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.  
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    Totally agreed on the competition.  Just as long as you don’t practice bad habits.

    Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun.  Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort.  But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.  
    Added bonus, there are usually a lot of good folks competing and eager to help with critique, ideas and such.  Even watching the good shooters is helpful.  

    Listen to everyone and just dismiss what does not sound right or doesn’t work for you.  But you never know where the next jewel of wisdom will come from.  

    Sometimes it’s even a question from a less experienced shooter asking you why you do something a certain way that might even help you reassess a habit you’ve picked up.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 349 Member
    The thing I do wrong with respect to competition is I don't shoot the rest of my guns.  8 months out of the year, by the time a match is over, I'm worn out from the heat.  I often bring something to shoot after but of say no thanks and regret it later.    Hoping it stops raining by morning so I can go shoot a few and zero a pistol before Saturdays match.  Need to get some AR work in before next. Carbine match.

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,140 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #125
    I don't profile anyone because I'm not very good at it.  Plus, the chance of needing to shoot someone in my community is about like winning the Mega Millions on the same day as you are lightning struck. When I carry (not all the time, but I'll carry more from now on) If I sense danger from anyone I meet, I scream like a woman.  You'd be surprised at how well this works.  :smiley:  I'm immune from shame. 

    Seriously, I refuse to be a victim and won't live like one, paranoid and fearful, planning on killing someone I don't even know.  For me, that's psychotic behavior. (opinion)  I'm too old for that, and don't have much to lose.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    I don't profile anyone because I'm not very good at it.  Plus, the chance of needing to shoot someone in my community is about like winning the Mega Millions on the same day as you are lightning struck. When I carry (not all the time, but I'll carry more from now on) If I sense danger from anyone I meet, I scream like a woman.  You'd be surprised at how well this works.  :smiley:  I'm immune from shame. 

    Seriously, I refuse to be a victim and won't live like one, paranoid and fearful, planning on killing someone I don't even know.  For me, that's psychotic behavior. (opinion)  I'm too old for that, and don't have much to lose.

    Statistics say having to kill someone you know is frighteningly common, but training just to kill familiars...yeesh.

    Seriously though, it's the people you don't know that are the concern.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,153 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    I don't profile anyone because I'm not very good at it.  Plus, the chance of needing to shoot someone in my community is about like winning the Mega Millions on the same day as you are lightning struck. When I carry (not all the time, but I'll carry more from now on) If I sense danger from anyone I meet, I scream like a woman.  You'd be surprised at how well this works.  :smiley:  I'm immune from shame. 

    Seriously, I refuse to be a victim and won't live like one, paranoid and fearful, planning on killing someone I don't even know.  For me, that's psychotic behavior. (opinion)  I'm too old for that, and don't have much to lose.

    The world needs Bullet Traps as well. 

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    I learned last night that one of the victims, Richard White, was one of my high school class mates.  We both graduated in 1970.

    I did know him, although not very well.  As I recall, he had a quick smile, was quick to laugh, and had a good outlook on life.

    Prayers to his family, as well as to the families of the other two, including the family of the man who shot him.  I can only imagine the pain they must all be living with at this time.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,140 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #129
    The "have a plan to kill everyone you meet" is low-hanging fruit for anti-gunners.  I know what it means, but for neutral citizens, it makes gun owners who have that attitude seem like assassins.  I wish it had never been said.
    Killing someone you know, or more accurately, getting killed by someone you know reflects family violence stats goes to show how statistics can be manipulated. Unless you're a spouse abuser or a drug dealer/user or a prostitute, you're probably going to beat the "killed by someone you know" figure.
    Liberals are fond of saying "Americans favor sensible gun control" which is meaningless unless "sensible" is defined.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    Wow you got all that from a single dumb meme?!?!?!?  Damn.... 🤭
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    Gee, I guess I need to explain since apparently I Genes mind I’m some sort of “assassin”.  

    Just like Gen Mathis meant when he addressed his folks, all this means is that you live in a dangerous environment (some more than others, but assumptions can kill you) and harm can come at you at ANY time from the most unexpected places/folks.  So be ready to defend yourself at all times and this requires a plan.

    So as Zee said, my head is on a swivel and my brain is constantly assessing my environment and everyone in my ecosystem.  This is just a state of mind, not extra work as I go through my day.

    After the SHTF Is a poor place in time to try to come up with a plan of action.  Shooting lanes, exit routes, possible friendlies need to be decided ahead of time regardless of where you are.  Otherwise, well, the world does need bullet traps 🤣
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    Some thoughts:

    First off, I'm with Zorba... I'm just here to learn.  Save for opinions, I have very little to offer, but I'll give freely of what I can. 

    As far as reverence for Victim #1, he has my admiration... he stood up and did what he could, despite the likely possibility he KNEW he was paying a losing hand.   Obviously, we can't know what his thoughts were, but we can know that - while he may have fumbled - he didn't hesitate.  That counts for a lot in my book.  As they used to say on those old westerns I read as a kid, he had sand.  That isn't to say we can't learn from him, though.  Standing up before drawing attracted unwanted attention.  That was a mistake, plain and simple.  Using the pew ahead as concealment while drawing,  then presenting (and possibly firing) while standing could have easily made this a "victimless" shooting, with only the perp as a casualty. 

    Regarding the shot that ended this fracas, kudos to him for maintaining his wits and being able to perform as needed.  


    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • JerryBobCoJerryBobCo Senior Member Posts: 8,227 Senior Member
    One thing I've learned over the years is that I have no idea how I would react or respond to any given situation unless I've been there and done that.  I've never been in a situation such as this, and hope I never will be.

    'nuff said.
    Jerry

    Gun control laws make about as much sense as taking ex-lax to cure a cough.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,140 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Wow you got all that from a single dumb meme?!?!?!?  Damn.... 🤭

    An anti would get a lot more mileage out of this meme that serves no purpose for pro-gunners. .  If you're a Marine in a combat zone, having such a plan is reasonable.  If you're a civilian walking down the street it sounds mall-ninjaist. Like the infamous saying on T-shirts by same that reads "The only thing I feel when I kill is recoil."  Laughable to seasoned gun owners, such thoughtless things are fuel for antis who plan to categorize us as killers and perverts.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,437 Senior Member
    So I guess that thing about always carrying a knife in case there's cheesecake, or in case you need to stab someone in the throat is right out too? Pity, I always liked that one..

    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    Those who love to find outrage need no real reason to be successful.  Oh well.  Just a meme... 
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • BamaakIIBamaakII Posts: 349 Member
    The meme is just about situational awareness.  Be aware, have a plan always.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    BamaakII said:
    The meme is just about situational awareness.  Be aware, have a plan always.
    BINGO!!!
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,394 Senior Member
    What Gen. Mattis said was a blunt battlefield version of what Jeff Cooper would've called Condition Yellow. It's a statement of constant awareness/alertness and it's not a bad philosophy. It doesn't mean constant paranoia as some folks might believe, just be aware and alert. If you do this, you'll likely see trouble coming before it makes a home on your doorstep. Secondly, if you can't see yourself as being able to pull a trigger when a deadly threat presents itself then why would you carry in the first place. (Not talking about you Gene. As a former Ranger and LEO, I suspect you have it in you). My message is for the lurkers out there that like making mountains out of molehills.
    What Gen. Mattis said was just a saying that goes way back. He said it to his Marines in 2006 but I heard a version of this long before that on Okinawa.
    It's good advice, as long as you understand the context.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    I font give one single, solitary crap what any "anti" thinks about gunners in general, or me in particular. 

    I tried caring, but it just didn't work out. 
    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • coolgunguycoolgunguy Senior Member Posts: 6,624 Senior Member
    I font give one single, solitary crap what any "anti" thinks about gunners in general, or me in particular. 

    I tried caring, but it just didn't work out. 

    Oops... *don't, not "font".  🤣

    "Bipartisan" usually means that a bigger than normal deception is happening.
    George Carlin
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,394 Senior Member
    I font give one single, solitary crap what any "anti" thinks about gunners in general, or me in particular. 

    I tried caring, but it just didn't work out. 

    Oops... *don't, not "font".  🤣

    Thanks for clearing that up for me. It was a head scratcher. 😁
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,394 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #143
    Totally agreed on the competition.  Just as long as you don’t practice bad habits.

    Competition is something you can do more often than a full bore training class, cheaper and really fun.  Take a good pistol combative/ CCW class, then use what you learn in a competition of some sort.  But don’t fall into the competition trap- things like gaming the rules to win, etc... Practice and compete with your real carry gun, in your real carry rig and real carry garment.  
    I didn't mention this earlier since I wasn't sure how useful it would be to forum members but for those so inclined -- Force on Force training.
    Going head to head with other students in an "Actual" (simulated) shootout.
    In IDPA we run scenarios for both accuracy and time but no one is trying to clobber you. In a Force on Force scenario, other students or instructors play the part normally played by paper targets and they shoot back!
    It's all done using Airsoft, Paintball or Simunition. All participants wear protective gear and it's a real eye-opener for those who believe a simple mastery of the static range is all you'll ever need.
    I'd recommend this for anyone...
    Just wear your brown pants 😂
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    This thread was opened in the SD forum so we could discuss SELF DEFENSE.  Not feelings or political issues.  Unfortunately around here we seem to drift right into this nonsense discussions whether we want to or not.  Unless someone has any further comment on the SD actions on the video, I’m out.  
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,153 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    This thread was opened in the SD forum so we could discuss SELF DEFENSE.  Not feelings or political issues.  Unfortunately around here we seem to drift right into this nonsense discussions whether we want to or not.  Unless someone has any further comment on the SD actions on the video, I’m out.  

    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,410 Senior Member
    Okay.
    Cleaned up. 
    I really don't want to do this again.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 25,153 Senior Member
    I approve force on force training. It’s all fun and games until the targets shoot back. And it hurts.
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,394 Senior Member
    edited January 2020 #148
    Looking at this tragedy from the viewpoint of purely surviving the event. I don't wish to diminish the courage or good intentions of those brave men who gave their lives.

    My biggest take aways from this tragic video.
    1) He shouldn't have made it inside in the first place! But he's inside now so then what?
    2) Don't stand up and make yourself a target unless you're ready to fight back (gun aimed and ready, at the least)
    3) Practice drawing your weapon from a seated position.
    4) Practice firing from a seated position.
    5) If I'm already standing, Move! These days someone walks into a church with a gun, he means business. Don't expect it to end well. And a moving target might mean the difference between a fatal and a wounding hit or even no hit at all.
    6) Practice Condition Yellow always. We should all know by now, bad things can happen at anytime, anywhere.
    7) Always have a plan and a backup for the plan and whenever possible a backup for the backup. (aka be flexible and adaptable). Nothing ever follows a script.
    8) Know your exits and endgame.

    These are my biggest take aways from this tragedy. Would anyone else like to add or adjust the above. Sharing ideas is how we all learn.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,394 Senior Member
    I forgot,
    9) Practice headshots. If you can make the shot, take the shot. End the violence quickly. The Dayton, Ohio shooter wore body armor.


    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,317 Senior Member
    Don’t be afraid of distance.  Embrace it while training.  If you can do tiny groups at 10 yards all that’s stopping from doing it at 25 is your head.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member
    Drawing from a seated posture is why I appendix carry in most instances.  In the event you need to draw surreptitiously or have the gun in front of your body when first draw out of the holster it's great.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
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