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pros and cons of red dot on edc

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  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,249 Senior Member
    Preferences begin to emerge:

    The Ameriglo 2XL sight set paired with the HS507 atop the C&H plate DID make a big positive difference compared to the "true cowitness" 3XL.

    With the 3XL, when you elevate your head slightly to increase the gap between the dot and the top edge of the iron sights, the irons rather clearly get vertically misaligned.  If you manage to program yourself to totally ignore the irons, this is a non-issue, but if your lizard brain has 40 years of experience screaming at you to "LINE THOSE SUCKERS UP!", you end up looking at the more cluttered true-cowitness sight picture.

    With the 2XL, doing the same thing does not give near the same "that ain't right" sight picture (that you SHOULD be ignoring) below your dot..

    So we have a set of 1XL's coming to see what we get.  The goal at this point seems to be to establish how low we can go with the irons and have a useable top edge of sights, but still have some combination of tritium dots that does not get cut off by the red dot's deck.

    Doubtless, there will be time spent with calipers as we figure out the puzzles for the various sights we're looking at.  Fun to learn all this, however, it's got me standing by my earlier statement:

     VS. 
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,730 Senior Member
      I make a point to reinforce my Luddot status. I will wander a bit to make this metaphorical point.

    Back when I was young, autos had mostly standard transmissions...."three on the tree" and a few "four in the floor."  (VWs, etc.)  Automatic transmissions were extra cost and kinda not cool for us teens.  Most of us learned to drive on standard and didn't want to pay extra for an auto that offered less performance than a manual.  Thing is, if you could drive a standard transmission, you could also drive an automatic.  But the opposite was not the case.  I spent a frustrating few hours trying to teach my nephew how to drive a manual transmission, without much luck.

    Back in the 1980s, I had a LEO class in Columbus, GA, me and another officer.  We took my Department ride, a Mazda sedan with a 4 speed and a Wankel engine.  It was a 2 week school and I got sick after about the third day.  I didn't feel like driving to class, but my buddy didn't know how to drive a stick shift.  So, sick as I was, I had to drive the both of us from housing to school.

    The point of this is to say electronic sights are fine, but don't get wedded to them to the point of not being able to use an iron sight. Is this a real possibility?  Could be.  Could also be one of those solutions looking for a problem to solve. Transmissions in cars have improved a great deal to the point that they are now THE standard in automobiles.  Is this possible with dot sights becoming the standard? I hope not. Good sight alignment w/irons is hard to replace.

    I hate to rely on an electronic sight entirely...unless I have to. (Buckmark with a can=have to). The military has a supply system where if your battery or sight fails, you can get it fixed or replaced in no time.  For us LEOs and CC folks, it's a long way back to the battery store.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ErwinErwin Posts: 7 New Member
    Depends of what you expect to happen in your ordinary day. It depends of the work you do. I usually carrying my Glock 19 with Iron sights (have also hellcat with red dot) for EDC and in my opinion, the EDC gun for self-defense might be used only in short distance. There is no classical aiming, just shooting by sense in emergency, and on short distance, if you are experienced you cant miss...

    P. S. and it is little easier to CC without red dot sights 
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,249 Senior Member
    OK. . .  I've gone to the Dark Side with a Holosun 507.  At least I have two slides, so I don't have to live with it.  Given the weirdness of advancing presbyopia, I expect I'll probably live with it.  Nobody likes needing a crutch, but when you seem to no longer have a foot. . .:(



    Mounted it up on my 17 yesterday with C&H's "Defender" polymer mounting plate, which gives you a stand-off bumper which protects the front of the lens somewhat against damage from slide-racking on holsters or barriers.

    At the onset anyway, I'm going to run it in "auto" mode, which has a sensor to adjust reticle brightness based on ambient light.  The sight also has an auto shut off after 10 minutes of being motionless and "shake awake" that turns it back on when the gun is moved.  I'll probably continue running with the Eotech-like "circle dot" reticle, but may end up clicking it over to the 2 MOA dot without the circle.

    My primary range is currently down, so the 15-yard zeroing (optimum distance to keep a 9mm flying as close to line of sight as possible for the first 40-ish yards) will have to wait a spell. :'(  

    For those of you that don't want to do the math - a sight with 1-MOA adjustments is 6.666666666..... clicks to the inch at 15 yards.  I think I'll just call it seven. . .


    More feedback on some of the other options:

    Trijicon RMR

    PROS:
    It mounts low. 
    The controls are straightforward. 
    It runs a long time on a battery.

    CONS:
    You have to take it off to change that battery and then fire to confirm zero - ideally, after leaving it sit for a day to let your low-strength purple LocTite set up.
    The window is BLUE.  For whatever reason Trijicon is big on blue glass.  Never been a fan of that '70's sunglasses effect.
    The window also seems to be a bit of a lens, with a small amount of distortion around the edges as you move it around.  This effectively reduces the size of the field of view.

    GOOD/BAD???:  It's a physically small sight.  Like SS3 has illustrated, that has some perks for CCW, but it does cut into your field of view through the window.  Because of that small field, you'll want to choose your backup irons carefully for your best combo of usefulness without cluttering up the view through the scope.

    Trijicon SRO:

    PROS:
    It's a nice big window with a nice big field of view.  
    Same simple controls as the RMR
    Has an auto-dimming/brightening mode as an option.  Not as sensitive as that on the Holosuns due to the sensor's location, but nice all the same.
    You don't have to take it off to change batteries

    CONS:
    Probably a bit large for anything other than a full-size, exposed-carry duty gun.
    It has the same blue glass and edge distortion as the RMR but this is far less distracting here due to the larger window putting the edges farther away from the center.

    Leupold Delta Point Pro 2.5 MOA dot:

    PROS:
    It's got a nice big window.
    It has really clear glass.

    CONS:
    Comparably, it's a very thirsty battery-sucking vampire.  Unless you're the sort of fastidious guy who does things on schedules and cleans his CCW weekly weather it's been shot or not, this will be a drain on your relationship with the sight.
    It's TALL, and needs comparably tall backup irons.
    It lacks the two up/down buttons for brightness adjustment that many other sights have - you have to cycle through the full range of settings with the one button you're given.
    You have to poke your finger into your field of view to adjust those brightness settings, and pull it back out to see what adjustment you made.  Kinda slow and laborious in that regard.

    GOOD/BAD???: With the big window and good glass, I would rock this sight on a competition gun with no iron sights in a heartbeat.  If you tend to lock in one brightness setting for all uses, the button to control it is nicely isolated away from things that might bump it.  Might be a bit on the large/tall side for a concealment piece.

    MINI RED DOTS:

    Still pretty new and I haven't gotten my mitts on one yet.  The W&E adjustments on the RMR CC are apparently a very coarse 3 MOA, which if I did the math right works out to a pretty chunky 0.45" at 15 yards.  Good enough for gummint work I suppose.

    The Holosun "K" models are supposedly just like their bigger brothers, except that they don't have room onboard for the solar backup / auto brightness sensor.  Probably the road I will travel - just need to line up a G48 MOS first...
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JasonMPDJasonMPD Senior Member Posts: 6,557 Senior Member


    The jury is still out, but in almost every way there is indication this setup is making shooting a more intuitive action for me.
    “There are three kinds of men. The one that learns by reading. The few who learn by observation. The rest of them have to pee on the electric fence for themselves.” – Will Rogers
  • shotgunshooter3shotgunshooter3 Senior Member Posts: 5,733 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    OK. . .  I've gone to the Dark Side with a Holosun 507............





    Welcome to the dark side. Do you prefer chocolate chip or sugar cookies?
    - I am a rifleman with a poorly chosen screen name. -
    "Slow is smooth, smooth is fast, and speed is the economy of motion" - Scott Jedlinski
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 23,972 Senior Member
    I haven’t jumped yet. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,249 Senior Member
    I'm still figuring out what I need in a pair of glasses, but it looks like I'm headed for a distance prescription in bifocals that will give me a fuzzy, but still useful front sight.  What I currently have is tighter than 20/20, which is WAY too fuzzy with pistol sights, though oddly, the view of a front rifle sight through an M4's peep enabled me to shoot one of the best scores on our qual course yesterday that I've ever turned in.  Shot better with the fuzzy front post than the Aimpoint on the optics qual, in fact.

    Anyway, we've got new Gen 5 MOS's on order for the agency and we should be switching over by spring.  Given the current mid-prescription Limbo I'm in, I qualified yesterday with my 17 and Holosun, stuffed it in my EDC holster, and put my much-traveled, Frankensteined-by-breakage circa 1994 Gen 3 22 on the bench for what may be its final detail cleaning. 

    So the real utility I'm seeing with these things is for old guys like me that CAN'T easily get onto their front sight anymore, or for people that DON'T fall back on their training and fixate on the target under stress.

    I still dislike the "technology" of it all and potentially see that as a VERY sharp double-edged sword - the lowest common denominator that needs this thing is probably also the lowest common denominator that will have problems understanding, maintaining, changing batteries, etc...

    The good news there is that the better manufacturers seem to be considering that angle.  While you can't make it completely stupid-proof, they at least seem to understand that stupid will get involved at some point and are trying to build the product accordingly.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • pjames777pjames777 Senior Member Posts: 1,421 Senior Member
    For comp or general practice us old guys can have bifocals reversed for better pistol front site focus.  That way you don't have to lift your head. 
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,249 Senior Member
    pjames777 said:
    For comp or general practice us old guys can have bifocals reversed for better pistol front site focus.  That way you don't have to lift your head. 
    Yeaaaaaah. . .we're looking at trifocals here. . .  First attempt at bifocals gave me distance, and readers. . .with about a 2-foot gap of uselessness where the dash of my car and my pistol sights live.

    I really miss our "bashing-head-against-brick-wall" emoji.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 11,730 Senior Member
    At my advanced age (75) I still only need eye glasses to read and then it's drugstore readers.  Knock on wood.  I've got general Progressive glasses but don't use them.  My vision is 20-25 with an astigmatism. I can't blame my poor shooting on my eyesight.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • Diver43Diver43 Senior Member Posts: 10,903 Senior Member
    Bigslug said:
    pjames777 said:
    For comp or general practice us old guys can have bifocals reversed for better pistol front site focus.  That way you don't have to lift your head. 
    Yeaaaaaah. . .we're looking at trifocals here. . .  First attempt at bifocals gave me distance, and readers. . .with about a 2-foot gap of uselessness where the dash of my car and my pistol sights live.

    I really miss our "bashing-head-against-brick-wall" emoji.
    Talk to you Doc about Varilux lenses.  They are a little more expensive, but well worth it for me
    Logistics cannot win a war, but its absence or inadequacy can cause defeat. FM100-5
  • JaphyJaphy Posts: 65 Member
    Bigslug said:
    I'm still figuring out what I need in a pair of glasses, but it looks like I'm headed for a distance prescription in bifocals that will give me a fuzzy, but still useful front sight.  What I currently have is tighter than 20/20, which is WAY too fuzzy with pistol sights, though oddly, the view of a front rifle sight through an M4's peep enabled me to shoot one of the best scores on our qual course yesterday that I've ever turned in.  Shot better with the fuzzy front post than the Aimpoint 
    an interesting vision exercise is to look through a small aperture and note that vision becomes sharper and the depth of field increases. This can be seen in photos as well. Open up the aperture and the DOF drops. Looking through a tight rear peep may induce the same effect.
    Try it out punch pencil point size hole in a piece of paper notice the image is sharper and the depth of field increases. There will also be a difference in bright light vs low light because the pupils will be dilated in low light reducing depth of field and make the front sight fuzzy
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