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Yet another newb.

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  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,421 Senior Member
    Why a 9mm and not a 380? She is a newbie and recoil is an issue with most. What she needs is a bad breath gun not  target gun. IMHO a gun she can recover to sight plane will deliver more shots on target thus increasing the chance of stopping an aggressor. In the more practical world she'll shoot it a lot more if the recoil is less. I'd prefer a newbie start with a .22 not as a SDG but to get comfortable with firearms, shooting basics and safety. 
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    Recoil is what you see in Dirty Harry movies when he fires off his .44 Mag. "Snappy " is a whole lot faster and a whole lot less.

    Best description that I have.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Recoil is what you see in Dirty Harry movies when he fires off his .44 Mag. "Snappy " is a whole lot faster and a whole lot less.

    Best description that I have.

    Mike
    So like the difference between the bark of a chihuahua and the woof of a Saint Bernard?

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    Sums it up better than I did.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Thank you Mike.  I think I'd much rather have "snappy" in that case.
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Freezer said:
    Why a 9mm and not a 380? She is a newbie and recoil is an issue with most. What she needs is a bad breath gun not  target gun. IMHO a gun she can recover to sight plane will deliver more shots on target thus increasing the chance of stopping an aggressor. In the more practical world she'll shoot it a lot more if the recoil is less. I'd prefer a newbie start with a .22 not as a SDG but to get comfortable with firearms, shooting basics and safety. 
    "Bad breath" gun?  Hmmmmmmmmmm..........

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    Freezer said:
    Why a 9mm and not a 380? She is a newbie and recoil is an issue with most. What she needs is a bad breath gun not  target gun. IMHO a gun she can recover to sight plane will deliver more shots on target thus increasing the chance of stopping an aggressor. In the more practical world she'll shoot it a lot more if the recoil is less. I'd prefer a newbie start with a .22 not as a SDG but to get comfortable with firearms, shooting basics and safety. 
    Though possibly not stated as well as I should have, (though I thought I did) the Kahr PM9 recovers sight plane much faster than any pistol I've ever handled. 

    Plus....it's a 9mm.....not a .380. There's a difference.

    Mike


    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,161 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    Freezer said:
    Why a 9mm and not a 380? She is a newbie and recoil is an issue with most. What she needs is a bad breath gun not  target gun. IMHO a gun she can recover to sight plane will deliver more shots on target thus increasing the chance of stopping an aggressor. In the more practical world she'll shoot it a lot more if the recoil is less. I'd prefer a newbie start with a .22 not as a SDG but to get comfortable with firearms, shooting basics and safety. 
    "Bad breath" gun?  Hmmmmmmmmmm..........

    More accurately described as a " Get off me" gun...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • FreezerFreezer Senior Member Posts: 2,421 Senior Member
    "Bad Breath Gun", Both of my SD guns are "Bad Breath Guns". Neither are comfortable to shoot at the range. If I take them out of concealment I can smell your bad breath and I'm going to use it. I have two other revolvers but I don't consider them CCW, HD....maybe... one is in my night stand, I prefer a shotgun.

    I don't need 25 yard accuracy. I doubt I'd should be shooting over 7 yards. The idiot will be running away if he's not dying. Either way I'm safe. One is a North American Arms Guardian chambered in 32 ACP, It's small enough to fit in my pants pocket without printing it's form outside of my pocket. It is considered a mouse gun or pocket pistol. The other is a PA 63 chambered in 9 Makarov, somewhere between 9mm and 380, Both are "snappy" and come back in the web of my hand. They're not comfortable to shoot at the range and my wife doesn't like them. But as is true when your hunting, you don't feel the recoil when you need to pull the trigger.

    I practice more with my ,22 because its cheap, it doesn't recoil, its accurate way beyond 25 yards and its FUN?. I learned safety, grip, trigger control and muscle memory with the .22  (Ruger MK II)

    The Sig 365 and a Walther (PPS?) are the most comfortable 9s I fired but I don't feel I need one. I handled my BILs Bursa Thunder in 380 many times and really liked it. It was small enough for a CCW.
    I like Elmer Keith; I married his daughter :wink:
  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,090 Senior Member
    Don't get too lost in definitions and/or semantics. Shoot some guns, compare how they handle, fit your hand, and yes, their recoil. You'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't. My wife, for instance, isn't particularly recoil shy - BUT - she's very particular about the gun's grip. She likes a gun she can wrap her hands around, small grips don't work for her. She also vastly prefers revolvers - she's put off by flying brass.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    zorba said:
    Don't get too lost in definitions and/or semantics. Shoot some guns, compare how they handle, fit your hand, and yes, their recoil. You'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't. My wife, for instance, isn't particularly recoil shy - BUT - she's very particular about the gun's grip. She likes a gun she can wrap her hands around, small grips don't work for her. She also vastly prefers revolvers - she's put off by flying brass.
    Good point!  The only handguns I've shot were revolvers so I've never had the experience of flying brass!

  • 10canyon5310canyon53 Member Posts: 2,122 Senior Member
    edited August 2020 #223
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:
    Don't get too lost in definitions and/or semantics. Shoot some guns, compare how they handle, fit your hand, and yes, their recoil. You'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't. My wife, for instance, isn't particularly recoil shy - BUT - she's very particular about the gun's grip. She likes a gun she can wrap her hands around, small grips don't work for her. She also vastly prefers revolvers - she's put off by flying brass.
    Good point!  The only handguns I've shot were revolvers so I've never had the experience of flying brass!


    Just a heads-up, the hot flying brass can on occasion wind up in inconvenient places for ladies.  It really depends on the individual firearm, different ones throw the brass on different trajectories.  Another good reason to shoot a gun before you buy it if you can.
    Also, something that I think has not been mentioned yet....  Once you select a gun for concealed carry you need a method to carry it.  There are many options, outside the waistband, inside the waistband, appendix, purse, pocket, etc.  You will probably try many options before settling on what works best for you and there is no one "right" choice for everybody.  Just a word of caution:  whatever method you use, make sure the gun is secured either in a holster of some kind or has a trigger cover that is attached to something and comes off during the draw.  The reason is that you do not want anything to accidentally come in contact with the trigger.
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:
    Don't get too lost in definitions and/or semantics. Shoot some guns, compare how they handle, fit your hand, and yes, their recoil. You'll figure out what works for you and what doesn't. My wife, for instance, isn't particularly recoil shy - BUT - she's very particular about the gun's grip. She likes a gun she can wrap her hands around, small grips don't work for her. She also vastly prefers revolvers - she's put off by flying brass.
    Good point!  The only handguns I've shot were revolvers so I've never had the experience of flying brass!


    Just a heads-up, the hot flying brass can on occasion wind up in inconvenient places for ladies.  It really depends on the individual firearm, different ones throw the brass on different trajectories.  Another good reason to shoot a gun before you buy it if you can.
    Also, something that I think has not been mentioned yet....  Once you select a gun for concealed carry you need a method to carry it.  There are many options, outside the waistband, inside the waistband, appendix, purse, pocket, etc.  You will probably try many options before settling on what works best for you and there is no one "right" choice for everybody.  Just a word of caution:  whatever method you use, make sure the gun is secured either in a holster of some kind or has a trigger cover that is attached to something and comes off during the draw.  The reason is that you do not want anything to accidentally come in contact with the trigger.
    Wise advice.  Thanks!

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,090 Senior Member

    Just a heads-up, the hot flying brass can on occasion wind up in inconvenient places for ladies.  It really depends on the individual firearm, different ones throw the brass on different trajectories.  Another good reason to shoot a gun before you buy it if you can.

    And even men! I learned to always wear a cap when shooting after I had a hot shell land between my glasses and my eyelid! And it wasn't my brass either, came from the guy in the next lane.

    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    zorba said:

    Just a heads-up, the hot flying brass can on occasion wind up in inconvenient places for ladies.  It really depends on the individual firearm, different ones throw the brass on different trajectories.  Another good reason to shoot a gun before you buy it if you can.

    And even men! I learned to always wear a cap when shooting after I had a hot shell land between my glasses and my eyelid! And it wasn't my brass either, came from the guy in the next lane.

    YIKES!
    I've been listening to a regular firearms program on the radio this morning, and the guest is an instructor who was explaining why they demand "eyes down range" when they're teaching new shooters.  He described a student looking to the side and getting hot brass in the face.
    Lesson learned.

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:

    Just a heads-up, the hot flying brass can on occasion wind up in inconvenient places for ladies.  It really depends on the individual firearm, different ones throw the brass on different trajectories.  Another good reason to shoot a gun before you buy it if you can.

    And even men! I learned to always wear a cap when shooting after I had a hot shell land between my glasses and my eyelid! And it wasn't my brass either, came from the guy in the next lane.

    YIKES!
    I've been listening to a regular firearms program on the radio this morning, and the guest is an instructor who was explaining why they demand "eyes down range" when they're teaching new shooters.  He described a student looking to the side and getting hot brass in the face.
    Lesson learned.

    I tell all my female students no low cut shirts and no collared shirts at the range.  They are brass catchers and brass is usually HOT when traveling your way.  A simple t-shirt is the best!

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,090 Senior Member
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    zorba said:
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    And definitely NO SEQUINS!  They melt!  :p

  • zorbazorba Senior Member Posts: 25,090 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    And definitely NO SEQUINS!  They melt!  :p

    What about face veils?
    -Zorba, "The Veiled Male"

    "If you get it and didn't work for it, someone else worked for it and didn't get it..."
    )O(
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    Collars are just neck/chest funnels!  I only wear them when I teach or when I'm alone at the range.  If I'm shooting with others, plain T-shirts!
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 7,642 Senior Member
    zorba said:
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    And definitely NO SEQUINS!  They melt!  :p

    What about face veils?
    I can see where they would keep brass off your face.  B)
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    zorba said:
    Twinkle said:
    zorba said:
    You know, I hadn't even thought about collared shirts - very good point.
    And definitely NO SEQUINS!  They melt!  :p

    What about face veils?
    Only silk!  Polyester chiffon could melt and bond like hot glue to your face and none of us want to see that!

  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    knitepoet said:
    Twinkle, concerning hot brass, a bunch of members used to meet in south central Tenn on Memorial Day weekend for what we termed "the southeast shoot".
    A few years back I posted a PSA in a thread about an upcoming one reminding any ladies that were going to be shooting (a bunch stay at the house and chat) about not wearing anything "low cut", after having had to donate one of the clean "sweat towels" I'd normally bring, to a (now former) member's ex-wife after watching her perform a couple of renditions of the "I have hot brass in my bra" dance.
    YIKES!  Many stories!
    I will wear a simple, form fitting t-shirt whenever I shoot.  And probably keep a change of clothing in the car as well.

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    When I was in boot camp, my squad was working the butts (below grade target pits), when a spent M16 round (actual bullet) fired from 500 meters that had apparently spent its energy on something along the way dropped over the edge of the butt and slipped down my target partners shirt collar and stopped against the bare skin atop his belt. 

    Judging by the track of the welt (later scar) I can attest that bullets, too, are hot when they land.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    "Snappy" is an imprecise term, and it all depends. I think it means uncomfortable and sharp but not painful.
    ...
    And shooting more often gets you used to recoil so tolerance is increased and seen as something to be noted but not to be afraid of.  After awhile, you'll (speaking for myself) get prepared for working recoil.  ALL handguns have recoil; the hotter the load and the heavier the bullet generally means more recoil.  Helping tame the recoil is the design of the gun and the weight...a 1911, for example, in .45 ACP has more recoil than a PM 9, but the weight of the gun makes the recoil more "pushy" than "snappy."  (Opinion) The PM 9 is "snappy" and the grip is short so could be, your pinky finger can't help managing recoil.  I had a PM 9 and can't remember if my little finger was useful or not. 

    ^This^

    Snappy can be informally related to firearm velocity. To some folks the idea of firearm velocity is a strange idea but that's what recoil is, but instead of the bullet/powder velocities out the muzzle it's the reward movement of the firearm and "snappy" tends to be used to describe those recoil events with higher rearward velocity.

    Let's compare a 39 ounce full size 1911a1 government model using a 5 grain powder charge that sends a 230 grain fmj (full metal jacket) at 850 f/s. On the output we have a firearm with a rearward velocity of 12.8 feet/second, 6.2 ft•lbs of recoil energy and an Impulse of 1.0 lb•s

    Compared to a 14 ounce Kahr PM9 using a 4.0 grain charge that sends a 115 grain fmj bullet at 1100 feet/second.
    You get a rearward velocity of 23.7 feet/second with a recoil energy of 7.7 ft•lbs and a Impulse of 0.6 lb•s
    What we see is that the Kahr accelerates more quickly rearward (snappier in the hand because it's lighter) but overall has less "kick" (recoil impulse) by around 40% depending on how you want to look at it.

    When I teach a new shooter, I always have 2 toy guns in the range bag these days. New shooters often ask, "How much kick does it have?" (Usually women ask this question since guys likely won't ask -- a pride thing) So when someone asks, I break out a toy gun and a wooden mallet. First I tell them, "Get in a good shooting stance and point the (toy) gun down range." When they do, I step out in front and push on the muzzle. A lot of new shooters will end up taking a step back because their stance isn't stable (I correct them). Next, I take my mallet and tap on the muzzle of the toy gun with modest force. This usually gets their attention but with a few repetitions it becomes a non-issue. At this point, with careful guidance we move onto an airsoft pistol with moving parts. By the time we get to the actual .22 firearm there's no apprehension left, these folks want to shoot. A potentially scary experience becomes a fun one and another safe, effective shooter is ready for more gun experiences.
    I hope this wasn't a long winded answer on what "Snappiness" is 😁
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • LinefinderLinefinder Moderator Posts: 7,766 Senior Member
    No, you did an excellent job.

    Mike
    "Walking away seems to be a lost art form."
    N454casull
  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    I agree with Mike.  Sounds like an innovative way to approach the subject and familiarize new shooters with what they can expect.  The one guy I had (so-called) "teaching" me to shoot gave me no such patience and understanding.  He just put the guns in my hands and told me very little else.  I am starting some private lessons with a new teacher this week and I hope he's as good a teacher as Spk is.
  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,746 Senior Member
    Twinkle said:
    ...
    The one guy I had (so-called) "teaching" me to shoot gave me no such patience and understanding.  He just put the guns in my hands and told me very little else. 
    ...

    That kind of teaching style is more Prank/Sink or Swim/Tough Love approach. Basically saying to you, "What do you need a gun for, anyway?"
    I'm sorry to hear your early experiences were negative, possibly meant to dissuade you from further learning. Lucky for you, you found this place and one thing we're good at is enabling 😁
    Do keep us updated on how the classes go. I, for one, am interested in how much you get from this class.

    Hoping for the best. 👍 
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    Spk said:
    Twinkle said:
    ...
    The one guy I had (so-called) "teaching" me to shoot gave me no such patience and understanding.  He just put the guns in my hands and told me very little else. 
    ...

    That kind of teaching style is more Prank/Sink or Swim/Tough Love approach. Basically saying to you, "What do you need a gun for, anyway?"
    I'm sorry to hear your early experiences were negative, possibly meant to dissuade you from further learning. Lucky for you, you found this place and one thing we're good at is enabling 😁
    Do keep us updated on how the classes go. I, for one, am interested in how much you get from this class.

    Hoping for the best. 👍 
    Thank you for the encouragement, Spk.  You better know that this is the first place I'll come with every impression and question I have!

  • TwinkleTwinkle Posts: 174 Member
    When I was in boot camp, my squad was working the butts (below grade target pits), when a spent M16 round (actual bullet) fired from 500 meters that had apparently spent its energy on something along the way dropped over the edge of the butt and slipped down my target partners shirt collar and stopped against the bare skin atop his belt. 

    Judging by the track of the welt (later scar) I can attest that bullets, too, are hot when they land.

    Mike
    That's something I had never considered, Mike.  When I was in Montana and doing the little bit of shooting I did, I had a great desire to hunt and as a consequence, thought a lot about what actually happens when your bullet hits the game target.  Oh, it was a big deal and it was a great disappointment when I had to move back to civilization and give up the idea of hunting.  No game in Seattle and nobody to shoot with.

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