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Instinctive shooting

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  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    The OP wasn't really focused on draw. The video includes instinctive or point shooting without sights. That's why I posted it.

    Its also 60 to 70 years old. So being antiquated is expected. 

    The technique of point or instinctive shooting may or may not be effective as compared to modern technique using aim and sight alignment. But it isn't necessarily connected to the draw technique.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    edited April 15 #33
    I call it "instinctive" but that may be an improper label.  It was "unsighted shooting" but not necessarily relying on instinct.  It was taught and practiced at short range, not at longer range.

    Has it been 50+ years since I went through the FBI  course taught at the GA basic course?  I doubt the Academy in GA actually had a course for qualification back then.

    I shot a Model 28 then, not mine, but the agency I worked for and finished 2nd to a guy who brought a Model 14 to the range on his second try.  It was the first time i shot a revolver IIRC, so I must have learned well.  Qual was one day, maybe two.Lots of training has changed since then.  LE went from revolvers to Autos, from six in the cylinder to 15 between the grips.

    DA revolvers now are becoming anachronistic.  Kinda like SA revolvers were back in DA LE revolver days. Model 10s were a mainstay in .38 Special, and WAY back, 158 RN. Lead.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    Likely the FBI crouch is the biggest loss of technique to the passing of time. Methods for making training films have gave way to videos.

    Plenty of revolvers are still being carried at least by civilians.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    Yeah, just about everyone has at least one revolver for whatever reason.  Some like their simplicity.  My wife preferred my Model 65 over a 1911 because she trusted it not to go off accidentally, just point, pull the trigger.  No safety to worry about.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,944 Senior Member
    A perfect sight picture is always desirable IF you have the time to achieve it or if the precision needed for an effective shot is way smaller than just High Center Chest (HCC) at typical SD distances within 5 yards, like a headshot at 15 yards.  But, it's not necessary to have effective accurate hits in a big hurry.  There is a balance that needs to be achieved between Speed/Precision.  Precision usually has s cost in time.

    We really are not far off in our discussion.  First, in the older days those guys in the FBI and Law Enforcement were basically handicapped with all but useless sights in their duty guns, so in order to achieve speed the most effective way was to use the barrel of the gun as your point of reference and to the best of your abilities (and with LOTS practice) achieve a point in skills where the handgun is just an extension of your arm.  

    Today for the most part, fighting guns are equipped from the factory with great, easy to pick up front sights, or you can easily install aftermarket sights that are SCORES better than anything they had available to them back at the time this film was made.   So we need NOT compromise in the use of front sights as a helpful point of reference when we seek speed.  I can not remember the last time when I had to shoot any drill that allowed me to have the gun fully extended in front of me where I could not see the front sight come into the picture as I focused on the target and brought the handgun in to play.  

    But when I do drills using the old stainless S&W Model 60 and have to take the time machine back to 1950s I use mostly kinesthetic body alignment to execute fast HCC shots from SD distances because it would cost me dearly to try to get a correct full sight picture with that gun.  So in my mind the effective distance of that firearm is whatever distance I can get an accurate HCC shot off basically by using my body alignment vs a front sight, UNLESS I have the time to execute a precise shot using those itty-bitty shinny sights. 

    And last, today we emphasize economy of motion, not just in shooting by in drawing, reloads and just about anything else that has to do with the handguns.  If the quickest way to get from point A to point B is a straight line why use anything BUT a straight line.  Sweeping and unnecessary motions costs, again, TIME.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    A couple of points: Sight Alignment is much more important that sight picture, if you have time.  I was taught this at Clenco firearms training and a good visual ed.

    Second, the "sweeping" in the FBI film was to get the jacket out of the way.  Training to necessity for agents who wore jackets.  So it was a necessary teaching point for the periodt .
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,944 Senior Member
    Gene L said:
    A couple of points: Sight Alignment is much more important that sight picture, if you have time.  I was taught this at Clenco firearms training and a good visual ed.

    Second, the "sweeping" in the FBI film was to get the jacket out of the way.  Training to necessity for agents who wore jackets.  So it was a necessary teaching point for the periodt .
    Agreed, sight alignment is VERY important, in precise shooting.   At bad breath distances you really do not need the sight because chances are you'll be shooting from positions closer to your body like High Compressed Ready.  Then from a few yards out and and out to reasonable SD distances when you have time and space to extend your gun in front of your eyes and see that front sight you are good to go.  Your body and brain kind of take care of the fine tuning without much involvement as long as your focus is on the target.  

    As you learn and train you start making the distinction between close enough to focus on the target, to far enough when you have to focus on the sights.  But that needs training and for the individual to figure out where that line lies.  It's not the same for everyone.  In time this distinction becomes automatic.  

    It's also dependent on size of target.  If all I need to do is shoot to slide lock on your chest from 2 yards away I will focus on you and I'll see the front sight in the picture (NOT sight picture, it's just there), BUT if my target is smaller, like only the top half of the BG head, then more precise shooting and therefore focus on sights becomes more important.

    I understand that the FBI included the sweeping motion for their agents who would most likely wear suit jackets.  Unfortunately the guys illustrating the technique in film are not wearing jackets, AND they sent these training films to a bunch of police departments where LEOs don't normally were jackets but they still learned the sweep.  They also learned to bring the gun out low and "scoop" the gun up to waist or center high alignment.  That arched trajectory wastes time.

    Today we teach to bring the gun out of the holster and immediately turn the muzzle towards the threat just in case you need (or have the opportunity during a very close encounter) to start shooting before going any further in your draw.  You can do this as long as you are close enough to feel secure on your ability to score hits from this shooting position.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    The purpose of FBI film was to train agents, not local police at that time.  Can't train for both jackets and non-jackets so the most restrictive position is with a jacket on and that sweep is better than clawing for the gun with a suit coat in the way.

    And outside of the FBI academy, there were no uniforms worn except in training. When the film was made, most states didn't have a training program for cops.  As I said, the FBI trained us back in the early 1970s because we didn't have a course of fire in GA.

    Dated film, for sure. Not the way I'd teach it today, but it's interesting to see how Jelly influenced training.

    If one has time, sight alignment AND sight picture are both preferred.  But with SA, you miss the X ring by up and down, along the axis of the human body.  With improper SP, you're going to miss right or left where there is less room for error.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    edited April 17 #40
    I have an illustrated article wtitten by Bill Jordan. It has a frame by frame break down of his draw wearing a suit jacket. He pushes the jacket flap back well bending his right knee slightly. No crouch. I'll have look for it this weekend. I'm pretty sure he puts six hits on target from the hip in less than a second. Of course he was exceptional beyond measure.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,559 Senior Member
    What would happen if you had moved Jordan's target to the left, right, up, or down?  
    Overkill is underrated.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    He'd shoot the contrivance.
     :D ..
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    I have an illustrated article wtitten by Bill Jordan. It has a frame by frame break down of his draw wearing a suit jacket. He pushes the jacket flap back well bending his right knee slightly. No crouch. I'll have look for it this weekend. I'm pretty sure he puts six hits on target from the hip in less than a second. Of course he was exceptional beyond measure.

    Check on that time, please. 
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    It could be off. My memory ain't reliable. I need to rifle through the archives for the article.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    Yeah, I'd appreciate it.  When I was younger and faster, I could at forearm range get off my first shot and hit the target in .6, and that was with a 1911.
    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member


    I was off on the count, but I had the time right. I may have been thinking of Ed MgGivern? MgGiven? SP?
    I think I have a piece where he does six hits in 3/5ths of a second. That one will be very hard to find though....
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 8,499 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    While that is a cool historical aspect video, I am exceptionally glad that those drawing and aiming techniques are no longer typically taught/employed. They are slow and antiquated in some aspects. I don’t know if it was for training purposes, but that was a snail pace draw!!  So much waisted movement. 
    To each their own, there is a reason we make fun of an “FBI Draw”. That sweeping motion is laughable these days where economy of motion prevails. 
    No thanks, I’m faster and more accurate with sights outside 3ish yards. 

    Good video on how not to draw, though. 😁
    Draw?  I thought I was watching professional bowling. :D  Very cool in the historical context though.

    It's probably not correct to say that the FBI's hip-fire technique disregards the sights entirely, but  at the ranges discussed, the point of impact is the apex of a cone formed by the shooter's eye and the front sight, and that cone makes for what?  15 degrees angle of separation between the two?  30?  An impressive skill set to be sure, but regardless, it's going to change significantly with distance, and much of the practice you put in to master it will down the toilet when you change guns or grips.

    Two things come immediately to my mind that illustrate how variances in those angles can drive one bonkers:

    1.  If you want to start a fist fight in a gun nut's bar, ask what people think is the proper zero distance for an urban-use AR-15, where the sights are offset 2.5" inches above the bore.

    2.  Laser sights that are mounted significantly below the bore.

    In either case, the closer your zero, the more radical the angle, and the more wildly off target you will be at longer distances without serious readjustment.

    All of that is stuff that can be programmed into the "meat computer" and compensated for, but consider the time and effort required. . .versus simply looking directly through the sights.

    In the discussion of stopping the threat, my contention is that if you're not putting your rounds into a 4" circle centered around where the really important "pipes and wires" are, you aren't stopping the threat as quickly as possible, and the fight may continue despite fast, but marginal hits.  The question may not be one of "which draw is faster?", but rather, "which draw allows you to stop the threat faster?"

    The modern draw technique of pull, pivot 90 degrees directly above the holster (where you can take your 1-yard "danger-close" shots), and drive straight out is probably roughly the same speed as the old FBI crouch, BUT IT PUTS THE SIGHTS IN LINE WITH YOUR EYES where you eliminate all the goofy triangulation.

    I am NOT here to say that guys like McGivern and Jordan were not absolute studs, but I think we need to consider that many of the exhibition shooting exploits they are famous for were largely just that - exhibition shoots at a set distance that were practiced to exhaustion.  Moving the playing card that got absolutely riddled at 7 yards out to 15 might wreck one's targeting computer completely.  Coming up to the eye makes the exact distance a lot less important when it comes to reliably hitting that 4" diameter "off switch"

    "The most important lesson I learned...was that the winner of a gunplay usually was the one who took his time. The second was that, if I hoped to live on the frontier, I would shun flashy trick-shooting--grandstand play... In all my life as a frontier peace officer, I did not know a really proficient gunfighter who had anything but contempt for the gun-fanner, or the man who literally shot from the hip."  Wyatt Earp

    "Fast is fine, but accuracy is everything. In a gun fight... You need to take your time in a hurry."  Wyatt Earp

    The argument being that the very slightly slower good hit is probably ultimately faster at solving the problem than a fast marginal one or outright miss, followed by repeated attempts.  Throwing in the added concerns of injured bystanders and the current spun/woke perception that you were wrong in even showing up despite the fact that you were called to the scene, it pays to maximize your chances.


    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    edited April 17 #48
    For us in the real world it's all academic since none of us is likely to need to draw/shoot that quickly.  But for training others, it's worth looking at. I am no longer a trainer and when I was I had to adhere to Basic Course shooting for some very good reasons.

    I think this has been an interesting discussion.  I know it's afforded an opportunity to think about a situation I hope none of us ever has to face.  I think a person should shoot as fast as he can and still hit the target.  A one second 9 or even an 8 is better in my mind than a 5 second X when the target might shoot back. The one shot one kill thing is fine if you're White Feather with a rifle, but a handgun isn't the hammer of Thor.


    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 24,931 Senior Member
    I think index/bent elbow shooting has training and application merit inside of 3 yards. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 21,648 Senior Member
    edited April 17 #50
    The one time I've had to draw my CCW, guy opened the door to my late father-in-law's house as I was reaching for the door knob. Don't ask how I drew, I just know that my PM40 was in my hands pointed center mass, with my left hand supporting it, elbows against my side and I was yelling at the squatter to "GET ON THE FLOOR.. NOW!!"
    He was MAYBE 6 feet in front of me, but it was probably less.

    He decided to run instead and dove out the bedroom window he had open.

    2 deputies showed up to investigate but he was long gone. However,  a state trooper heading in for the end of his shift decided to stop by (office is 3/4 mile from here) and happened to see him walking up the road in his underwear, on his way to the scene, and then went back and apprehended him after I gave him a description. He was, "Hey, I just saw that guy walking that way" and went and brought him back
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 17,297 Senior Member


    I was off on the count, but I had the time right. I may have been thinking of Ed MgGivern? MgGiven? SP?
    I think I have a piece where he does six hits in 3/5ths of a second. That one will be very hard to find though....
    Ed McGivern..wrote Fast and Fancy Revolver Shooting...
    Look him up...he set many records in his day...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    I'd like to get that book. As I travel far enough back in time. I find an absence of content on youtube.
  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,944 Senior Member
    edited April 18 #53
    Bill Jordan’s “No Second Place Winner” was quite read.  I still have a copy somewhere around here.
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    Another one on the look for list. He salted his magazine stories with a bit of humor.
  • Gene LGene L Senior Member Posts: 12,070 Senior Member
    knitepoet said:
    The one time I've had to draw my CCW, guy opened the door to my late father-in-law's house as I was reaching for the door knob. Don't ask how I drew, I just know that my PM40 was in my hands pointed center mass, with my left hand supporting it, elbows against my side and I was yelling at the squatter to "GET ON THE FLOOR.. NOW!!"
    He was MAYBE 6 feet in front of me, but it was probably less.

    He decided to run instead and dove out the bedroom window he had open.

    2 deputies showed up to investigate but he was long gone. However,  a state trooper heading in for the end of his shift decided to stop by (office is 3/4 mile from here) and happened to see him walking up the road in his underwear, on his way to the scene, and then went back and apprehended him after I gave him a description. He was, "Hey, I just saw that guy walking that way" and went and brought him back

    Sounds like something that happened to me.  Me and another officer were dispatched to a woman with a gun.  We got there in less than a minute.  Went up the stairs to her front door, knocked on the door, and she opened it with what looked like a .25 pistol pointed at my waist.  I don't know how I did it, but my revolver out of a level 3 retention holster was in my hand very quickly.  Probably less than a second. The woman threw the "pistol", which was a replica or a teargas gun, strongly behind her into the living room and started laughing like the crazy woman she was. She didn't know how close it was to me pulling the trigger.

    Her name was Gabriela Kidd, and I almost shot her.  She and her sister, Merdell were "characters" around Athens,  Merdell more so than Gabriela. That was back when Athens was small enough to have characters. Maybe the whole family was **** but functional and not ordinarily trouble makers. If it had been a real gun and if she had wanted to, she could have shot me. I probably would have shot her as well, I don't know.

    Time didn't slow down, like with some people in stress.  I wasn't afraid; didn't have time for that.  I was pissed off because of what had nearly happened. Since she was a "character" and possibly ****, I didn't arrest her. I can't remember if we took the gun away from her crazy ass.

    Concealed carry is for protection, open carry is for attention.
  • earlyagainearlyagain Posts: 7,288 Senior Member
    From the man himself. This is the only time Ive seen him besides photos or heard his voice. Its long and the quality of the recording is poor. Still very interesting.

  • SpkSpk Senior Member Posts: 4,289 Senior Member
    GunNut said:
    Bill Jordan’s “No Second Place Winner” was quite read.  I still have a copy somewhere around here.

    Pages 94 and 95 are particularly relevant to this thread. Some of his teachings are still relevant.
    Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience -- Mark Twain
    How easy it is to make people believe a lie, and [how] hard it is to undo that work again! -- Mark Twain

  • GunNutGunNut Posts: 6,944 Senior Member
    Spk said:
    GunNut said:
    Bill Jordan’s “No Second Place Winner” was quite read.  I still have a copy somewhere around here.

    Pages 94 and 95 are particularly relevant to this thread. Some of his teachings are still relevant.
    They absolutely are!
    Old West Saying: God created men, but Col. Sam Colt made them equal.

    General George Patton:  “Watch what people are cynical about, and one can often discover what they lack.”

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