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Putting a cantilever barrel on a pump shotgun might not be so hot after all.

burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
edited January 14 in Hunting #1
I've been doing some investigating lately and have discovered a new wonder for shotgun-only deer gun seasons. Enter the marvelous Savage 220 20-ga. bolt-action slug gun! 24" rifled barrel. Minute-of-deer at up to about 160 yards. I live in Oklahoma with a lot of no-rifle gun seasons on public-accessible lands. I have yet to see gun companies like CZ jump aboard with such a bolt slug gun concept in a pretty blued-steel/wood checkered stock bolt-action slug gun. Many gun makers have yet to get hip to the fact that American deer-hunting jurisdictions, especially east of the Rockies, have been getting progressively getting less and less rifle-friendly. The Savage 220 is probably as ingenious as the Savage Model 99. Savage always seems to fill a void in the hunting long gun market. Tighter hunting regulations are the mother of new firearms inventions. I've read lately that cantilever scope barrels on pumps are just horrible setups for deer. 

The "B" of it is, quality 20 gauge hunting slugs, depending upon how fancy you get, can be up to 5 bucks a pop and they might be hard to find in stock to boot. At about $700 retail, this Savage bolt slugger is quite more spendy than your average Mossy 870 or Remmy 500 police pump. 

What do people here think of the Savage 220? Greatest thing since Da Yoopers', Da Thirty Point Buck

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Replies

  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,320 Senior Member
    This needed a second thread. . .why, exactly?

    I I've read lately that cantilever scope barrels on pumps are just horrible setups for deer. 
    Are the authors of said literature paid shills trying to sell bolt action shotguns?

    Will a pump action shotgun, initially engineered to spray birdshot to 50 yards, with a quick-detachable barrel, locking it's breech closed only with a single locking lug at 12:00 have the same accuracy potential as a dual-opposed lug, fixed-barrel bolt action? 

    No, it won't, but this is all relative.  Considering the effective ranges of the ammo and the intended target (deer), a system that holds 3-4 MOA will get it done.  The quest for ammo that delivers that or better will be the same regardless of the system, because unlike traditional rifle rounds, any shotgun gives you very little in the way of control over when and how the projectile stack (bare slug, sabot, etc...) enters the rifling.  Unless you get lucky on the early attempts, or can follow in the footsteps of someone with a gun that is identical internally, you are likely to be taking a bath on figuring out which particular ammo (which challenges African dangerous game loads for price) works best in your arm.

    Whether the specialized firearm designed to hop local legal hurdles is superior to to a converted bird gun is a question you've got to answer for yourself.  I have relatives in Illinois and if I choose to visit them during their deer season, I'd have to play the shotgun game.  I'm willing to pop for a take-off barrel and scope (and have done so); a bolt action shotgun that would lie totally neglected otherwise taking up a slot in the safe, not so much. 

    If you're living in an area where deer are thick as ticks on a stray dog and can be clubbed over the head like baby seals (as many shotgun zones are), the converted pump gun can be a practical and economical choice.  Doubly so if you're trying to figure out just how serious you are about the game.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,111 Senior Member
    I had a cantilevered rifled slug barrel on my 870...more than acceptable accuracy...and since the scope stayed with the barrel there was no re-zeroing when I swapped it for my turkey barrel.

    Slugs (especially sabot slugs) can be a bit pricey...but that's the price you're going to pay...

    Seems as if you're dreaming up problems...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 2,969 Senior Member
    American deer-hunting jurisdictions, especially east of the Rockies, have been getting progressively getting less and less rifle-friendly.”

    They are?!?!?!?  I must have missed it.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    Jayhawker said:
    I had a cantilevered rifled slug barrel on my 870...more than acceptable accuracy...and since the scope stayed with the barrel there was no re-zeroing when I swapped it for my turkey barrel.

    Slugs (especially sabot slugs) can be a bit pricey...but that's the price you're going to pay...

    Seems as if you're dreaming up problems...
    Jayhawker, is it true that a cantilever scoped slug barrel setup on a pump shotgun "beats you to death"? Is it also true you cannot mount such a setup to your shoulder as you normally would a centerfire hunting rifle? I have no experience in deer hunting with shotguns. That is still a mystery to me. I do know that in Oklahoma, rifles for deer are out for most of the WMA's and all the OLAPS here. Buckshot for Sooner deer is a flat-out no-no. I'm no archer or muzzle-loader, so I would have to make some sort of shotgun-slug-spittin' weapon work somehow. I understand there is a special learning curve to deer shotgunning. I'm not dreaming up problems. Yoo toob is planting troubles in my head by saying pump guns with slug barrels kick horribly and that a special shooting posture and technique is needed. Most of my long gun shooting experiences have been with rifles. To date, I've only hunted deer out west in zones that allowed rifles. Never fetched a scattergun deer hunting before. I belong to an unnamed hunting forum site and posters there seem to think pump shotguns for deer hunting suck and that somewhat-pricey Savage 200-series bolt-action slug guns and the fancy ammunition they shoot are the bee's knees for shotgun-deer jurisdictions. I came to G&A for a second opinion of the whole shotgun-deer thing. That's all. 
  • waipapa13waipapa13 Senior Member Posts: 915 Senior Member
    Could you give me an opinion on keeping myself safe in the jungle?
    What would be your recommendation for something to keep the lions and tigers and bears away from this mummy's little darling.
    If it were me in that sort of a situation, hazardous to life and limb, I believe that such a shotgun would make a fine defensive tool, especially the mount cantilevered as it is, I believe it would adequately match the slowly failing cantilever that is my mental health.
    Or even better a dog, what would be your preferred choice for a four legged pal in tropical conditions.
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    I've also heard "some sources" also say an auto shotgun is even "better" for slugs on deer than a pump. So, shotgun-deer hunters have three choices:

    1. that "nasty" pump
    2. that "not-so-nasty" auto
    3. that bees' knees, the "marvelous" Savage 212/220 bolt
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,320 Senior Member
    This is why I recommended you acquire not only the cantilever slug barrel for the 500, but also the stock with the two cheekpiece add ons - rapidly switched with about 5 minutes of Allen wrench time.

    The three things that will tend to clobber you with magnum slugs in this context are:

    1.  Comparatively high bore axis.  Not as bad as a lot of lever actions, but the recoil is not as straight back as some other options.

    2.  Cheek no longer in solid contact with a stock comb height that was designed to align your eye with a bead directly atop the bird barrel.

    3.  Timidly holding the shotgun without firm contact on shoulder and face.  The altered stock addresses the lack of ability to accomplish the latter caused by the higher line of sight.

    But basically, you're dealing with the same recoil mass and velocity physics of just about every military service rifle on earth from about 1840 to about 1886.  If millions of teenagers can learn to handle it with only a steel buttplate to cushion the blow, I'm sure you can manage with a Pachmayr Decelerator.

    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    edited January 16 #9
    Or, if one has the extra money, lives in serious shotgun-slug-required deer-hunting territory and hates to tinker, a Savage 200-series slug gun right out of the box. Tinkering with a pump gun to go a deer huntin', optional. With all the extra junk needed to make a pump gun buck-able or doe-able, one might as well dump one's money into the specialty Savage and keep one's 870 or 500 for birds, bunnies and burglars. Trying to use a bird gun for deer in 2022 nowadays seems rather old hat and a tad hillbilly-ish. 
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member
    You are gifted at creating drama...Make your decision.
    I am assuming you are a adult.
    Make a choice-Live with your decisions.
    It is not difficult.
    If you don't like first choice you made (sell or trade it), and make a second choice.
    How many deer have you killed in the past few years?
    How many days in the field do you typically spend hunting deer during the season?
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,111 Senior Member
    American deer-hunting jurisdictions, especially east of the Rockies, have been getting progressively getting less and less rifle-friendly.”

    They are?!?!?!?  I must have missed it.
    In my experience, they have been getting more rifle friendly...
    Michigan has allowed certain rifles in the traditional "shotgun zone" for quite a few years now...

    Even minimum caliber restrictions have been going by the wayside in some places...some years back Kansas changed from "minimum .24 caliber" to "any centerfire rifle"...apparently in a nod to developments in bullet technology...Right after I bought my 6.8 AR incidentally which I acquired because of the restriction.
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,111 Senior Member
    edited January 16 #12
    Jayhawker said:
    I had a cantilevered rifled slug barrel on my 870...more than acceptable accuracy...and since the scope stayed with the barrel there was no re-zeroing when I swapped it for my turkey barrel.

    Slugs (especially sabot slugs) can be a bit pricey...but that's the price you're going to pay...

    S
    Jayhawker, is it true that a cantilever scoped slug barrel setup on a pump shotgun "beats you to death"? Is it also true you cannot mount such a setup to your shoulder as you normally would a centerfire 
    In my experience...the answer to your questions is "no"...I have hunted (and killed) deer with slug guns for a long time...As a matter of fact...the old 20 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer was the epitome of smoothbore slug guns in my humble opinion...when they developed rifled shotgun barrels things only got better.

    Watch less YouTube...it's a poor research tool in general...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 2,969 Senior Member
    edited January 16 #13
    Jayhawker said:
    Jayhawker said:
    I had a cantilevered rifled slug barrel on my 870...more than acceptable accuracy...and since the scope stayed with the barrel there was no re-zeroing when I swapped it for my turkey barrel.

    Slugs (especially sabot slugs) can be a bit pricey...but that's the price you're going to pay...

    S
    Jayhawker, is it true that a cantilever scoped slug barrel setup on a pump shotgun "beats you to death"? Is it also true you cannot mount such a setup to your shoulder as you normally would a centerfire 
    In my experience...the answer to your questions is "no"...I have hunted (and killed) deer with slug guns for a long time...As a matter of fact...the old 20 gauge Ithaca Deerslayer was the epitome of smoothbore slug guns in my humble opinion...when they developed rifled shotgun barrels things only got better.

    Watch less YouTube...it's a poor research tool in general...
    YouTube contains all the knowledge in this Earth.  Unfortunately most of it is wrong.  If the term “Caveat Emptor” ever applied to anything I’d be information gained from YouTube and Google.
    I’m baaaaaaaaack… 😬
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,320 Senior Member
    Well, you seem equally able to complain about what things cost on the one hand, and about how the time-proven reasonable-cost option isn't "trick" enough for you on the other.

    Then, after launching a second thread - I hesitate to call it a "query" -  on the same topic before the first one has even settled, you start writing as if you suddenly are the leading authority with all the answers ready to man Savage's booth at the SHOT Show to help sell their wares to every man, woman, and child with a hunting license.

    You are indeed am interesting creature to watch.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    edited January 16 #15
    Second thread? This one is about pump shotguns for deer hunting. The other one was specifically about Savage 200-series bolt slug guns and nothing else. I'm not going to be asking any more questions about deer hunting with shotguns on this site. The consensus here is to "do something" to an existing pump gun "to make it work" for the deer fields. The consensus of the Hunt Talk forum is to get the Savage 220. I think my nod goes to a forum that is hunting specific. 
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    You are gifted at creating drama...Make your decision.
    I am assuming you are a adult.
    Make a choice-Live with your decisions.
    It is not difficult.
    If you don't like first choice you made (sell or trade it), and make a second choice.
    How many deer have you killed in the past few years?
    How many days in the field do you typically spend hunting deer during the season?
    I should have then become a Hollywood film producer. I'm in the wrong racket. I won't divulge in my deer hunting past here but I will say that it has been done by me only with a centerfire rifle. I know rifles but not much about shotguns. 
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member
    There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. You will find good information on both places. 
    You tend to ask a question, and then try to argue against the people answering your question. That is counterproductive.  
    I am definitely not opposed to going full **** in a custom build for a specific purpose. 
    I’ve done that more times than most here.
    Having said that, in terms of hunting, I could’ve killed probably just as many game with factory options or less expensive options.  
    There are several people here Who have killed a good number of game every year, with varying weapon systems. 
    I would hunt with a shotgun in the same way that I would hunt with a revolver or with high end archery equipment.  
    Personally, I don’t care which way you go on this.  
    Depending on the terrain, meaning the openness of the area I would typically hunt, would  determine for me whether I go with a high-end dedicated slug shotgun, or modify an existing one.  

    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    There are a lot of ways to skin a cat. You will find good information on both places. 
    You tend to ask a question, and then try to argue against the people answering your question. That is counterproductive.  
    I am definitely not opposed to going full **** in a custom build for a specific purpose. 
    I’ve done that more times than most here.
    Having said that, in terms of hunting, I could’ve killed probably just as many game with factory options or less expensive options.  
    There are several people here Who have killed a good number of game every year, with varying weapon systems. 
    I would hunt with a shotgun in the same way that I would hunt with a revolver or with high end archery equipment.  
    Personally, I don’t care which way you go on this.  
    Depending on the terrain, meaning the openness of the area I would typically hunt, would  determine for me whether I go with a high-end dedicated slug shotgun, or modify an existing one.  

    I was trying to pit people here against people from other sources. If one doctor says I have to do this dangerous operation to save my life, I will then seek opinions from one or more other doctors. I was sharing what I have been told from various sources and all the sources don't agree. Now that I have heard all these different things from different sources, I am in the know more now than I was ever before. Anyway, I would like to thank the folks here for their input. Please don't feel that I'm ungrateful for what was inputted here by others. Trust me, those who know me personally will say I am much better at rifle marksmanship than Internet forum writing, skills wise. I get an A for shooting and perhaps a D for writing. 
  • JunkCollectorJunkCollector Posts: 1,067 Senior Member
    edited January 17 #19
    This doctor says your hooked on a placebo
    That any deer a savage 220 would have killed my 11-87 would have also

    The price of the pill  for one I Also find distasteful.

    Are you hunting a state where you feel distance and utmost accuracy are paramount ?

    If so and a muzzleloader can be used it the prescription I'd take.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member
    edited January 17 #20
    Your problem is not your writing skills, they are just fine. 
    You enjoy waxing elegant, that is void of useful content for the subject, all to often.
    I don't care if you are a good shooter or not. 
    I don't care which shotgun you buy.
    In my experience, people who are experienced and good shooters never act the way you do.
    You want trust after you intentionally try to create drama?  Ha!
    You intentionally deflect and do not answer direct questions...
    Fake humility doesn't work, just because you use a lot of words.
    I know you are enjoying this, and currently I am playing along B)

    Since you have all of your answers now ("I am in the know more now than I was ever before"), which direction are you going in?
    What are you going to purchase?




    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    I still have to take some time to think it over. I'm now asking folks over at an Oklahoma-specific hunting forum some things. I had no concept that I was making drama here. This is not a punching match. Right now, I just want to take a chill pill and cool down a while. 
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member

    This doctor says your hooked on a placebo
    That any deer a savage 220 would have killed my 11-87 would have also

    The price of the pill  for one I Also find distasteful.

    Are you hunting a state where you feel distance and utmost accuracy are paramount ?

    If so and a muzzleloader can be used it the prescription I'd take.

    What is a typical 3-shot group at 100 yards from the bench with your 11-87?
    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • JayhawkerJayhawker Moderator Posts: 18,111 Senior Member
    If I could keep plain old Foster slugs in a pie plate at 100 yards I was happy....Never killed a deer that was more than 50 yards away with a slug gun...
    100 yard groups got noticeably tighter with a rifled slug barrel and sabot slugs...
    Sharps Model 1874 - "The rifle that made the west safe for Winchester"
  • JunkCollectorJunkCollector Posts: 1,067 Senior Member
    edited January 18 #24

    This doctor says your hooked on a placebo
    That any deer a savage 220 would have killed my 11-87 would have also

    The price of the pill  for one I Also find distasteful.

    Are you hunting a state where you feel distance and utmost accuracy are paramount ?

    If so and a muzzleloader can be used it the prescription I'd take.

    What is a typical 3-shot group at 100 yards from the bench with your 11-87?
    Ernie I've never shot it at 100 yards.
    There is no need to do so where I hunt.
    It is set up with a cantilever mount and I shoot hornady SST's 
    Standing leaning against a pole the slugs touch at 50.

    Were I the OP my money wouldn't go for the one trick pony especially if he could use an inline muzzleloader.
    That's where it would be spent.
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member

    This doctor says your hooked on a placebo
    That any deer a savage 220 would have killed my 11-87 would have also

    The price of the pill  for one I Also find distasteful.

    Are you hunting a state where you feel distance and utmost accuracy are paramount ?

    If so and a muzzleloader can be used it the prescription I'd take.

    What is a typical 3-shot group at 100 yards from the bench with your 11-87?
    Ernie I've never shot it at 100 yards.
    There is no need to do so where I hunt.
    It is set up with a cantilever mount and I shoot hornady SST's 
    Standing leaning against a pole the slugs touch at 50.

    Were I the OP my money wouldn't go for the one trick pony especially if he could use an inline muzzleloader.
    That's where it would be spent.
    Thanks.  Sounds like it is perfect for what you do.
    If it were me, I would do the same...Maybe.
    Knowing the types of terrain that exist in Oklahoma, I may or may not go that route.
    It would really depend on the type(s) of terrain and or openness I would be hunting in.

    If, I was stuck using BP or a shotgun, and the distances were likely to be longer, I would go with the most accurate one that had the ballistic advantages (including good trigger options), unless I could use a scoped inline BP pistol or a modern straight-wall cartridges in a scoped revolver.

    If that were the case, I would use the revolver in either 357 Magnum or 44 Magnum.
    If I was looking for distance and wanted to run things hard, I would go with the FA 353 ( I think that is the model) 357 magnum, where you can safely run high pressures with great accuracy or the BFR 5-shot 357 magnum, where you can do the same with great accuracy. 
    A customized Ruger or S&W would do it too B)
    I just wouldn't be able to run things quite as hard especially with the S&W.

    I am not opposed to a one-trick pony, IF I have the terrain where I can use it to it's full distance and accuracy benefit.  I would likely start shooting my bow again as well.
    I have friends that shoot their in-line custom BP rifles out to 500 yards (and further) with excellent accuracy.  Those are extremely pricey though.

    Sometimes, I want to be able to play the LR game, and other times I am content with less.
    I like diversity.  If, I can use the handguns, I wouldn't be spending my money on long guns.

    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,447 Senior Member
    With this guy on board, who needs daytime soap operas?!?

    Solid gold stuff right here. Ha!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • JunkCollectorJunkCollector Posts: 1,067 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    With this guy on board, who needs daytime soap operas?!?

    Solid gold stuff right here. Ha!
    Oh your just mad because he loves Savage just a bit more than you.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,447 Senior Member
    Oh, I’m not mad. I love this stuff!  We need this guy!
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Ernie BishopErnie Bishop Senior Member Posts: 8,484 Senior Member

    Ernie

    "The Un-Tactical"
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 9,320 Senior Member









    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • burroughs85burroughs85 Posts: 168 Member
    Yes, this thread crashed like a runaway train alright. 
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