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Greenwood Mall Shooting

breamfisherbreamfisher Senior MemberPosts: 13,993 Senior Member
So, this one is upsetting a lot of people. Those on the left, I won't bring up. But those who are shooters....

Good guy with a handgun faces down a bad guy with a rifle or two. Initial shots are at about 40 yds., it appears he got a hit at that distance. He was evidently braced against a column.

He then proceeds to close the distance, presses his offense, as the shooter tries retreat into the bathroom. All the while the good guy is advising folks to get out.

Total shots fired by the good guy are 10. Eight hits were scored. 

So much for pie plate accuracy at 7 yds. 

https://www.wthr.com/article/news/local/multiple-victims-reported-in-shooting-at-greenwood-park-mall/531-df15bbf5-8eca-4220-b149-7de4735fbe37

https://www.wrtv.com/news/local-news/crime/police-shooting-reported-at-greenwood-park-mall


I'm just here for snark.
«13

Replies

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    Sounds like a win. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    Yep. He's also surpassed the supposed distance an engagement will happen at, number of shots, what sort of person you will go against, that the presence of a good guy will make them go away....

    I heard he used a Glock in 9mm or .40. So the idea of handgun practical accuracy might also be disrupted. 

    I know this is only 1 instance, but it also shows some merit to having distance training. Or, as some trainers point out, if you can hit at 25 or 50 yds., there's a strong chance you can hit at 7.
    I'm just here for snark.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    edited July 19 #4
    Depends on what reality people who carry are willing to accept. 

    And what training they are willing/able to put in. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    You know?  I just thought of a drill I want to run. 
    Start at 50 yards with your steel of choice as a target. 
    At the timer buzzer, draw and hit the 50 yard steel twice.  After the second hit (however many shots that takes) run to 40 yards and repeat. Then 30, 20, 10. Time stops on the last hit at 10 yards. You can only advance with two hits on steel at each distance. 

    👍🏻👍🏻
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    edited July 20 #6
    Not a bad drill. I remember shooting IDPA matches and having folks say courses of fire at 25-35 yds. were "unrealistic" and "unfair." 

    BTW, some have come up with a "Dicken Drill" named after the good guy. First shot at 40 yds., braced behind cover is allowable. Then advance and fire. Ten shots total.

    I know I would probably do horribly on a drill like that. I shoot infrequently and at 15 yds. 
    I'm just here for snark.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    If you can do it without support…….you can do it with support. 
    😎
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    True, but if there's a field expedient aid...
    I'm just here for snark.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    True, but if there's a field expedient aid...
    My point being, train for the more difficult one. Use the easy button if available. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    Oh, I get where you're going. 
    I'm just here for snark.
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 10,809 Senior Member
    I could do that shot with my 5.25'' XDM40......

    Problem is... I've never carried it. With my carry gun???  :#


    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member
    jbp-ohio said:
    I could do that shot with my 5.25'' XDM40......

    Problem is... I've never carried it. With my carry gun???  :#


    That little guy is accurate enough for the task.  50 is doable.

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    You know?  I just thought of a drill I want to run. 
    Start at 50 yards with your steel of choice as a target. 
    At the timer buzzer, draw and hit the 50 yard steel twice.  After the second hit (however many shots that takes) run to 40 yards and repeat. Then 30, 20, 10. Time stops on the last hit at 10 yards. You can only advance with two hits on steel at each distance. 

    👍🏻👍🏻
    Hummmm, I might try that this weekend… 

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    You know?  I just thought of a drill I want to run. 
    Start at 50 yards with your steel of choice as a target. 
    At the timer buzzer, draw and hit the 50 yard steel twice.  After the second hit (however many shots that takes) run to 40 yards and repeat. Then 30, 20, 10. Time stops on the last hit at 10 yards. You can only advance with two hits on steel at each distance. 

    👍🏻👍🏻
    Hummmm, I might try that this weekend… 
    Fight to improve. Set your “par” the first time. Then, train to improve your time, which means you improve your accuracy and efficiency. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Zee said:
    You know?  I just thought of a drill I want to run. 
    Start at 50 yards with your steel of choice as a target. 
    At the timer buzzer, draw and hit the 50 yard steel twice.  After the second hit (however many shots that takes) run to 40 yards and repeat. Then 30, 20, 10. Time stops on the last hit at 10 yards. You can only advance with two hits on steel at each distance. 

    👍🏻👍🏻
    Hummmm, I might try that this weekend… 
    Fight to improve. Set your “par” the first time. Then, train to improve your time, which means you improve your accuracy and efficiency. 
    Sounds like a plan.  I’ve been working on my “walk” too.  Slow is smooth, smooth is fast 😁

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member

    What type of steel are you using?  All hits count or only HCC on a silhouette!

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • GrapeApeGrapeApe Posts: 379 Member
    breamfisher said:

    <snip>

    I know this is only 1 instance, but it also shows some merit to having distance training. Or, as some trainers point out, if you can hit at 25 or 50 yds., there's a strong chance you can hit at 7.
    Let's see... Recent enough for me to remember... There was a church shooting where the good guy delivered from distance (40-50 yards maybe???)
    A shooting in a trailer park where the good guy delivered with, IIRC, a 357 revolver from 60ish+ yards

    So, it's happened multiple times. It's a pretty safe bet that it will happen again.

    Sure there's an "average" that's quite a bit closer. That just means there are shootings at distances well above and below that average.
    "For longer range, use a bigger case. For bigger game, use a bigger bullet." - Dan Johnson
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member

    What type of steel are you using?  All hits count or only HCC on a silhouette!
    Your call. Your drill when you run it. 

    I plan to use a reduced IPSC steel or a 12” diamond. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 396 Member
    Wouldn't be surprised if Eli had a carry optic too. I definitely heard Glock 9mm from press conference. But bells and whistles are generally never mentioned. Anyone hear Chief say of the BG weapon being Sig M400 .556 (point556)?  
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    GrapeApe said:
    breamfisher said:

    <snip>

    I know this is only 1 instance, but it also shows some merit to having distance training. Or, as some trainers point out, if you can hit at 25 or 50 yds., there's a strong chance you can hit at 7.
    Let's see... Recent enough for me to remember... There was a church shooting where the good guy delivered from distance (40-50 yards maybe???)
    A shooting in a trailer park where the good guy delivered with, IIRC, a 357 revolver from 60ish+ yards

    So, it's happened multiple times. It's a pretty safe bet that it will happen again.

    Sure there's an "average" that's quite a bit closer. That just means there are shootings at distances well above and below that average.
    All very true. But most people don't understand how averages work. 

    Also, it should be remembered that those "average distances" generally come from LEO shooting data, mainly because that's the easiest data to query and analyze. 
    I'm just here for snark.
  • CHIRO1989CHIRO1989 Senior Member Posts: 14,574 Senior Member
    The stat that got my attention was that it took 8 hits with a handgun to get the situation resolved
    I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that they turn away from their ways and live. Eze 33:11
  • X104RFASTX104RFAST Posts: 26 New Member
    Wow!! 40 yards, braced or not, that's a very good shot under stress. Was the BG wearing
    a vest ? Well done 
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member
    Zee said:

    What type of steel are you using?  All hits count or only HCC on a silhouette!
    Your call. Your drill when you run it. 

    I plan to use a reduced IPSC steel or a 12” diamond. 
    I bought 2 IPSC 18” (66%?) steel silhouettes and steel poles so I can move them around.  Best money I’ve ever spent!!!

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • Jack BurtonJack Burton Member Posts: 396 Member
    A couple things that I've heard recently was that Greenwood Mall was a "gun free zone" and that Eli actually engaged BG within 15 seconds rather than the 2 minutes originally reported at press conf. 
    This, after all we learned about LE response at a certain TX elementary school. 
    Came for the fishing, stayed for the guns.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,189 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    You know?  I just thought of a drill I want to run. 
    Start at 50 yards with your steel of choice as a target. 
    At the timer buzzer, draw and hit the 50 yard steel twice.  After the second hit (however many shots that takes) run to 40 yards and repeat. Then 30, 20, 10. Time stops on the last hit at 10 yards. You can only advance with two hits on steel at each distance. 

    👍🏻👍🏻

    Im in... except... I run for no one so is briskly walk ok?
    I have a 12 in steel. If I start about 5 yards beyond the fence I can get 50. 40 and 30 will put me on the road to the barn. 20 I will be over the dirt pile in the weeds, hop the down tree and I am at 10.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,189 Senior Member
    edited September 12 #26
    Ok, for kicks I used the 22/45.
    Since I dont have a holster for it, I put magazines in my left rear pocket. Started unloaded, with my timer on my right pocket. Reached across to hit the timer with my left, grabbed a magazine, loaded and fired. 2 on at 50, 2 on at 40, 2 on at 30, 2 on at 20, 2 on at 10. 12 inch steel target.
    First pass 55 sec, no misses
    Second pass, 47 secs no misses
    Run is like 2 steps, stop, shoot. 50-40 is downhill, 40-30 is flat, I have to go down a bank for 20, then a couple steps uphill to a log that is about 12yds that we are calling 10.
    With a little more time I think it might be interesting to try with the carry. I know I can do it with the 1911, its a bigger target than bullseye.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • ZeeZee Senior Member Posts: 27,936 Senior Member
    Well done!👍🏻👍🏻

    I ran it yesterday as well. 
    12” steel
    2 weeks out of knee surgery 😳
    I was still able to run it clean with 2 hits at each yardage in 23 seconds. 
    It was a fun drill. 
    "To Hell with efficiency, it's performance we want!" - Elmer Keith
  • breamfisherbreamfisher Senior Member Posts: 13,993 Senior Member
    Some folks on the interwebz are decrying this as a silly, unrealistic drill.

    Maybe.

    OTOH, if it gets people shooting at distance and shooting better, is it a bad thing? 
    I'm just here for snark.
  • Wambli SkaWambli Ska Posts: 4,123 Senior Member
    Some folks on the interwebz are decrying this as a silly, unrealistic drill.

    Maybe.

    OTOH, if it gets people shooting at distance and shooting better, is it a bad thing? 
    If you can do it well at 50, 10 or less will be easy.   Seems logical to me…

    It’s a °IIIII° thing 😎

  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,189 Senior Member
    Zee said:
    Well done!👍🏻👍🏻

    I ran it yesterday as well. 
    12” steel
    2 weeks out of knee surgery 😳
    I was still able to run it clean with 2 hits at each yardage in 23 seconds. 
    It was a fun drill. 

    I was shooting a 12 inch, buff with 6in center painted black. Magazines in the left rear pocket.
    I was going to try it with the 1911 this weekend however I worked Sat, and it rained today. I have to work around the elevation changes and might be able to get the jump off the bank into the weeds part out, but ....
    Thinking on the PF-9, I dont carry an extra mag when I carry it, might run it as 1 on, move. I have hit with it at 40, not reliably though.
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
  • VarmintmistVarmintmist Senior Member Posts: 8,189 Senior Member
    Some folks on the interwebz are decrying this as a silly, unrealistic drill.

    Maybe.

    OTOH, if it gets people shooting at distance and shooting better, is it a bad thing? 

    Are they the same people who keep repeating that you will never have to engage with a handgun farther than you can pee even with a growing preponderance of evidence?
    It's boring, and your lack of creativity knows no bounds.
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