I need some input on SD and CCW.

ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 BannedPosts: 2,645 Senior Member
So I was just driving along the other day when some yay hoo decides he wants to tailgate me on the highway. I was in the center lane with both lanes open on the sides of me which gave the douche behind me every oppurtunity to just switch lanes and go around. I decided to do nothing. Just kept on driving the speed limit, not speed up, slow down or apply the brakes. The guy finally gets over and flies past me, letting me know Im number 1, naturally. So no biggie, dude trucked on, I made it to my destination.

Now here is where my question comes in. I always have my CCW on me at all times. I know there are always ways to try to stay away from trouble or keep things from escalating. But what if for instance, you were some place minding your business and one lone guy starts some trash with you over something and it is not feasible to just leave or avoid a situation. I have no problem throwing down fist to fist, but would rather not have to scuffle around on the ground while I have a gun on me that the guy could see or grab and I would surely hate to have to use it on somebody when I could have just beat their arse. So whats the happy medium? And would using deadly force on a single, unarmed person be legal anyway?
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Replies

  • WhitewookieWhitewookie Member Posts: 181 Member
    As far as the legalities of useing deadly force on an individual, there are many, many variables. Disparity of force being the biggie.

    Is the guy much bigger than you? Younger and stronger? Obviously impaired or whacked?. If you declare that you are armed and fear for your life and will defend yourself, and the individual presses on anyway, I believe a case could be made that he intends to kill or do grave bodily harm, and believes himself capable. If he believes himself capable, you must assume he is... Disparity of force. JMHO.

    As far as allowing yourself to become involved in a physical altercation while CCW, for me that's a no-go. Once again, JMHO but I believe you have a responsibility to protect the gun. If you lose it during a fist fight and it gets used on other inncocents, you are responsible, at least morally, and probably legally as well. You must protect the gun, and the best way to protect the gun is WITH the gun... Like I said, just opinion.

    Be safe,
    Harold
    RV,
    Harry
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." - Robert Heinlein
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    Good question. And my first response is It all depends. Im actually in the police academy and we went over this quite a bit. Mind you states may have different laws regarding this but here in Florida, All you need is the fear for your life or great bodily harm.

    I say depends because if the guy is unarmed but outweighs you by 100 pounds then yes you could articulate that you were in fear for your life. Now if the guy is average size or smaller than you then it may be harder to prove this. But still depends. Even if the guy is smaller than you but you happen to know that he has some kind of training like an MMA fighter or maybe military then you could then articulate that you were in fear for your life.

    There are things you could do to avoid such situations in many cases. If you are in your car and some guy has a bad case of road rage and exits his car and starts to approach you then obviously you would want to remain in your vehicle. if he has some kind of weapon then you could make a decision to either drive off or shoot depending on whether or not the situation allows it. Basically there is no clean cut answer to your question so it is necessary to look at the totality of the circumstances in order to determine whether you are justified in shooting.

    As far as getting in a fist fight while you are CCW i would agree that its a bad idea. Just remember that even if the other person is unarmed there will always be a gun in the fight, YOURS. so if you find yourself on the loosing end whose to say the guy wont take your gun away and use it on you.

    My suggestion would be to either ask a local law enforcement officer or maybe read the statutes in your state. Hope this helps.
  • DoctorWhoDoctorWho Senior Member Posts: 9,496 Senior Member
    I heard an incident on the news today, it started off much like the OPs, the guy sped up and ambushed the vehicle as it passed and fired shots at the car striking a passengers arm.

    There is not much advice one can really give since each situation can vary so greatly except to say, use the advantage your car gives you by staying inside and driving off when possible.
    "There is some evil in all of us, Doctor, even you, the Valeyard is an amalgamation of the darker sides of your nature, somewhere between your twelfth and final incarnation, and I may say, you do not improve with age. Founding member of the G&A forum since 1996
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,649 Senior Member
    Fistfights are a BAD idea regardless of CCW. If you lose, you can be injured and miss work, lose an eye, crack a rib, break a hand, and have large medical expenses.

    If you win, you will most likely be sued by who you beat up..... Plus you never know if they have a CCW and decide they need to use it on you...
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,932 Senior Member
    Getting in a fistfight is a no-no. Walk away. ALWAYS.

    What is it going to look like if you throw down with a guy, and he starts beating you to the point that you fear for your life and need to shoot? YOU are the one that went to a fistfight with a gun. YOU are the one that is supposed to be trained in avoidance and de-escalation. YOU are the 'good guy'.

    If you carry a gun, your 'fightin' days' are over. You need to be the adult.
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • ghostsniper1ghostsniper1 Banned Posts: 2,645 Senior Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Getting in a fistfight is a no-no. Walk away. ALWAYS.

    What is it going to look like if you throw down with a guy, and he starts beating you to the point that you fear for your life and need to shoot? YOU are the one that went to a fistfight with a gun. YOU are the one that is supposed to be trained in avoidance and de-escalation. YOU are the 'good guy'.

    If you carry a gun, your 'fightin' days' are over. You need to be the adult.
    But thats what Im saying. Its not always gonna be possible to just walk away. Say you unknowingly cut somebody off on the road, go into a gas station and later come out to be confronted by a guy your size that is thoroughly pissed and coming at you to say, punch you? (this is just a made up example btw.) What do you do then? Trust me, I have calmed down substantially since getting my permit and carrying. Just going through the what ifs.
  • BufordBuford Senior Member Posts: 6,676 Senior Member
    This would depend upon if the other guy was wearing a hoodie.
    Just look at the flowers Lizzie, just look at the flowers.
  • Make_My_DayMake_My_Day Senior Member Posts: 7,271 Senior Member
    Here in Florida, the qualifier for deadly force is: you are in fear of serious physical injury or death. You would have to determine what generated that fear.
    JOE MCCARTHY WAS RIGHT:
    THE DEMOCRATS ARE THE NEW COMMUNISTS!
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,233 Senior Member
    Many good points made already. Lots of variables, but as you say, we're assuming that the issue is being forced upon you.

    Consider that if someone decides to pick a fight with you, they've probably got some reason in their own mind to believe they can take you. The odds of you fully knowing their capabilities in relation to your own, their mental state, or what weapons they may be concealing are probably slim. You probably don't know if their intention is to give you a scare or "roughing up" for the perceived slight, or to leave you for the buzzards. Since you can't know any of that stuff, I tend to lean in the direction that their belligerence alone is enough to show disparity of force, and like Whitewookie says, you have some obligation to protect your sidearm. Going hands-on thinking you can handle it only to realize too late you should have led with your gun is a recipe for disaster. If you choose CCW, the list of legitimate uses for hand-to-hand shrinks dramatically - being topped with preventing a gun-grab. As has already been posted, your "tough guy" fightin' days are pretty much over.

    I trained for 2-3 years in a Chinese battlefield art known for it's practicality. One big lesson I took out of the experience was that it doesn't take a lot of time or effort to permanently maim or even kill with nothing more than hands, feet, and yes, teeth. Because of this, the other big lesson was that while hand-to-hand skills are unquestionably good things to know, they aren't anything you want to have to use. In true Sun Tzu fashion, one of the best ways to win or avoid a fight is to clearly demonstrate to the other side beforehand that the fight will NOT be on terms of their choosing. While no weapon should be brandished lightly, demonstrating that you CAN easily dispatch a hostile is often an effective way to not to NEED to dispatch a hostile, and it puts you in the advantageous position of not getting your skull bashed in by a guy running on a shortage of brains and an overabundance of testosterone.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • WhitewookieWhitewookie Member Posts: 181 Member
    Uechi-Ryu by any chance?
    RV,
    Harry
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." - Robert Heinlein
  • BigslugBigslug Senior Member Posts: 7,233 Senior Member
    San Soo.
    WWJMBD?

    "Nothing is safe from stupid." - Zee
  • bullsi1911bullsi1911 Moderator Posts: 9,932 Senior Member
    But thats what Im saying. Its not always gonna be possible to just walk away. Say you unknowingly cut somebody off on the road, go into a gas station and later come out to be confronted by a guy your size that is thoroughly pissed and coming at you to say, punch you? (this is just a made up example btw.) What do you do then? Trust me, I have calmed down substantially since getting my permit and carrying. Just going through the what ifs.

    Avoid, say you are sorry, de-escalate, go back inside the store and call for the police, NEVER fight unless it is the absolute last resort. YOU have a gun. Any fight you get in will have a firearm involved, because the gun is there even if it is not drawn. Walk away if you can, if he corners you and there is no way out- then you switch into a defensive stance. Switch to your loud command voice and tell him to STOP. Issue commands, get witnesses. "STOP, GET AWAY, YOU ARE THREATENING ME, SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE."

    You cannot get into a fistfight. If someone smacks you, break contact, withdraw- if they chase... you are in fear for your life or severe bodily injury
    To make something simple is a thousand times more difficult than to make something complex.
    -Mikhail Kalashnikov
  • WhitewookieWhitewookie Member Posts: 181 Member
    Bigslug wrote: »
    San Soo.
    Excellent.
    RV,
    Harry
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." - Robert Heinlein
  • glockman0422glockman0422 Member Posts: 216 Member
    bullsi1911 wrote: »
    Avoid, say you are sorry, de-escalate, go back inside the store and call for the police, NEVER fight unless it is the absolute last resort. YOU have a gun. Any fight you get in will have a firearm involved, because the gun is there even if it is not drawn. Walk away if you can, if he corners you and there is no way out- then you switch into a defensive stance. Switch to your loud command voice and tell him to STOP. Issue commands, get witnesses. "STOP, GET AWAY, YOU ARE THREATENING ME, SOMEONE CALL THE POLICE."

    You cannot get into a fistfight. If someone smacks you, break contact, withdraw- if they chase... you are in fear for your life or severe bodily injury

    I agree. The best thing to do is avoidance. If its not possible, then the loud commands are a brilliant idea. If the person swings at you or just intimidates you in any way, they can get arrested. And the loud commands will create witnesses which can testify in your favor. There is no shame in backing down. Just remember that by you CCW you have to power to take his life, you just decide not to. If the person decides to engage in such activity then its on them. Let the police do their job. Another option would be to use less lethal force. Taser Int. has a civilian model that anyone can carry. You fire it and it stays on for 30 seconds. the way it works is once you fire it, you just drop it and run away. They will replace it for free if you ever actually use it in a SD situation which i think its pretty cool. And then there is OC spray. I just got Sprayed last week and i have to say it is horrible. While i was able to fight and do a few tasks, i really doubt i would be able to fight for long. But at the end of the day awareness and or common sence are your primary weapons. Take care.
  • Mr.FMr.F Member Posts: 89 Member
    jbp-ohio wrote: »
    If you lose, you can be injured and miss work, lose an eye, crack a rib, break a hand, and have large medical expenses.

    ...
    Same thing happens when you win too .
    Jermanator : You might talk about Tauruses around your wife, but that just doesn't fly in my house.
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 617 Senior Member
    So I was just driving along the other day when some yay hoo decides he wants to tailgate me on the highway. I was in the center lane with both lanes open on the sides of me which gave the douche behind me every oppurtunity to just switch lanes and go around. I decided to do nothing. Just kept on driving the speed limit, not speed up, slow down or apply the brakes. The guy finally gets over and flies past me, letting me know Im number 1, naturally. So no biggie, dude trucked on, I made it to my destination.

    Now here is where my question comes in. I always have my CCW on me at all times. I know there are always ways to try to stay away from trouble or keep things from escalating. But what if for instance, you were some place minding your business and one lone guy starts some trash with you over something and it is not feasible to just leave or avoid a situation. I have no problem throwing down fist to fist, but would rather not have to scuffle around on the ground while I have a gun on me that the guy could see or grab and I would surely hate to have to use it on somebody when I could have just beat their arse. So whats the happy medium? And would using deadly force on a single, unarmed person be legal anyway?

    You were in the center lane and both lanes on either side were clear? Why not simply move over and let the fool go on? Besides the fact that as I understand the law (keep right except to pass) you were in the wrong for being in a passing lane while not passing it is on YOU to avoid the confrontation, armed or not.
  • U TU T Member Posts: 405 Member
    You were in the center lane and both lanes on either side were clear? Why not simply move over and let the fool go on? Besides the fact that as I understand the law (keep right except to pass) you were in the wrong for being in a passing lane while not passing it is on YOU to avoid the confrontation, armed or not.

    I don't think you understand the law, as the left lane is the passing lane and emergency lane. The center lane, (i could be wrong) is not considered the passing lane, although if it's not congested, staying in the far right lane would be my choice.
  • gunrunner428gunrunner428 Senior Member Posts: 1,018 Senior Member
    To shake the tailgater, I'd have signalled clearly for the right lane, moved over, and slowed down if necessary to encourage him to pass. My brother tells of a time years ago when some fool thought to tailgate him on a narrow two-lane county road - my bro. was a bodybuilder-type then and was in his wife's Chevette, and simply slowed down to a near-stop on the road before the other car finally took the hint and passed.

    Some drivers just don't have a clue as to common courtesy, though, and drive as if they are just looking to fight. Avoidance, a cell phone ready to dial 911, and a little extra caution will go a long ways towards disengaging you from an agressive bumper-rider.

    Wow. Now I have to go back and rethink things a bit - just finished working with one daughter in learning to drive and starting with the second. I try not to drill it into them, but "defensive driving" has come up quite a bit with both of them!
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    This is an oversimplification, but basically you can have a gun or you can have fists, not both.

    The instant you start carrying a gun you no longer have fists, you now have appendages that are designed to hold a gun. If you get into any kind of confrontation you do absolutely EVERYTHING in your power to de-escalate it, even if this involves the seriously un-manly act of running away like a little girl. If there is ANY way to get away from the situation with out you or your loved ones getting hurt, THAT'S what you do.

    If however, you are put into a situation where you have ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER alternative, you stop the threat. You stop the threat and you do it damned fast. You don't fire warning shots, you don't try to hold him until the police arrive, you sure as hell don't give him the opportunity to get your piece. You draw and you put multiple rounds center mass.

    And remember these words...... "I was in fear for my life.....He/She was going to hurt/kill me.......I was in fear for my life."
  • jbp-ohiojbp-ohio Senior Member Posts: 9,649 Senior Member
    Happens all of the time.....

    http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-northern-ireland-15095811
    18 killed by one-punch attacks' in Northern Ireland

    The campaign warns death or serious injury can be caused by one punch
    Eighteen people have died in Northern Ireland from "one-punch attacks" in the past seven years, police have said.

    The PSNI has launched a new poster campaign to raise awareness of the issue.

    Targeted at men aged 18-25, it highlights the risks of getting involved in an argument or fight which could lead to serious injury or death.

    Det Ch Insp Karen Baxter said the majority of such incidents were fuelled by alcohol.

    "With just one punch, lives have been destroyed and families lives have been wrecked," she said.

    "Raising awareness of one punch is timely given the number of students and young people who are embarking on a new term at college or university across towns and cities in Northern Ireland.
    "The democracy will cease to exist when you take away from those who are willing to work and give to those who would not." Thomas Jefferson
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,475 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    If you get into any kind of confrontation you do absolutely EVERYTHING in your power to de-escalate it, even if this involves the seriously un-manly act of running away like a little girl. If there is ANY way to get away from the situation with out you or your loved ones getting hurt, THAT'S what you do.

    I can honestly say I would never do that. Not an ego thing, but I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't run away. Walk away, yes absolutely, and if the aggressor lets me, crisis averted. If not, then......
    If however, you are put into a situation where you have ABSOLUTELY NO OTHER alternative, you stop the threat. You stop the threat and you do it damned fast. You don't fire warning shots, you don't try to hold him until the police arrive, you sure as hell don't give him the opportunity to get your piece. You draw and you put multiple rounds center mass.

    I do have a question though: Is there a discrepancy between this approach and Bigslug's comments earlier in the thread?
    In true Sun Tzu fashion, one of the best ways to win or avoid a fight is to clearly demonstrate to the other side beforehand that the fight will NOT be on terms of their choosing. While no weapon should be brandished lightly, demonstrating that you CAN easily dispatch a hostile is often an effective way to not to NEED to dispatch a hostile.......

    That would seem to be different approach; how does one reconcile the two? I've seen posts from other members that made it clear that the only time the gun is drawn in a scenario such as the one proposed is when you're going to fire, yet what Big is suggesting seems plausible. If either of you would care to elaborate, or if anyone else wants to chime in, I'm lookin' to get educated here......
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • tv_racin_fantv_racin_fan Senior Member Posts: 617 Senior Member
    U T wrote: »
    I don't think you understand the law, as the left lane is the passing lane and emergency lane. The center lane, (i could be wrong) is not considered the passing lane, although if it's not congested, staying in the far right lane would be my choice.

    As I understand it the law is keep right except to pass, there is no mention of a center lane. In any event the prudent thing is to move over to avoid the issue.

    Not long ago on a trip there were several knotheads taking up the passing lane(s) at different times and places. My son mentioned that some drivers seemed to take the hint and traffic wasn't so bad most of the trip. In one place some motorcyclists came up and it seemed everyone moved over for them except the one knotthead that was causing the congestion. I know I moved over pretty quickly to allow them to go on. I sometimes get in line behind someone and sometimes get a bit frustrated with them and I do not always move over to the far right but I do so far more than most on the highway and I always move to avoid confrontation IF I am the holdup, I generally move when I aint the holdup
  • WhitewookieWhitewookie Member Posts: 181 Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    I can honestly say I would never do that. Not an ego thing, but I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't run away. Walk away, yes absolutely, and if the aggressor lets me, crisis averted. If not, then......



    I do have a question though: Is there a discrepancy between this approach and Bigslug's comments earlier in the thread?



    That would seem to be different approach; how does one reconcile the two? I've seen posts from other members that made it clear that the only time the gun is drawn in a scenario such as the one proposed is when you're going to fire, yet what Big is suggesting seems plausible. If either of you would care to elaborate, or if anyone else wants to chime in, I'm lookin' to get educated here......

    I'll chime in, once again JMHO.

    It comes down to a matter of space and time management. Given enough separation between you and the aggressor you may have time to demonstrate that you are armed and willing to defend yourself. You may possibly be able to either take a drawing grip, draw to low ready, or draw and aim and issue commands. As separation decreases, either he continues to advance or you are not able to initially gain separation, your time envelope begins to collapse. The closer in the threat, obviously the quicker you must decide and act.

    Personally, if they are inside of 20' or so I'm not going to delay much if at all. If I draw and they IMMEDIATELY AND OBVIOUSLY stand down or retreat I'll disengage. If they do not...lawyer time.

    Harold
    RV,
    Harry
    "I never learned from a man who agreed with me." - Robert Heinlein
  • EliEli Senior Member Posts: 3,074 Senior Member
    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »
    I can honestly say I would never do that. Not an ego thing, but I know myself well enough to know I wouldn't run away. Walk away, yes absolutely, and if the aggressor lets me, crisis averted. If not, then......

    "Running away like a little girl" loosely translates to "retreating from the situation." I'm 6 foot tall and weigh 375 pounds.....I'm not RUNNING anywhere......more like grunting and waddling in the opposite direction from the fight. :roll2:


    bobbyrlf3 wrote: »

    That would seem to be different approach; how does one reconcile the two? I've seen posts from other members that made it clear that the only time the gun is drawn in a scenario such as the one proposed is when you're going to fire, yet what Big is suggesting seems plausible. If either of you would care to elaborate, or if anyone else wants to chime in, I'm lookin' to get educated here......


    That depends entirely on the aggressor, as WhiteWookie said, it's all about time.

    I'm looking for the threat to stop. IF, in the time between me clearing my cover garment and the front sight leveling with C.o.M, the aggressor stops being a threat, then we all go home happy. If not, well that's on them.

    Also, how you handle this situation depends on your abilities and reaction time. Say instead of complying when you present your CCW, the aggressor becomes more aggressive, going for a gun of their own or just, or just charging you. Can you put rounds into them before they hurt you? I know that inside of a few yards, with my abilities and reaction time that IF they start some action, I won't have the time to stop them from completing that action. Probably at the very best we'd come out in a tie........and in a "somebodies about to die" situation, that's just seriously no bueno.

    :up:
  • bobbyrlf3bobbyrlf3 Senior Member Posts: 2,475 Senior Member
    Eli wrote: »
    "Running away like a little girl" loosely translates to "retreating from the situation." I'm 6 foot tall and weigh 375 pounds.....I'm not RUNNING anywhere......more like grunting and waddling in the opposite direction from the fight. :roll2:

    :spittingcoffee:

    Good stuff.
    Knowledge is essential to living freely and fully; understanding gives knowledge purpose and strength; wisdom is combining the two and applying them appropriately in words and actions.
  • pilotpilot New Member Posts: 25 New Member
    It may be easy to "overthink" such situations. I can not know what someone else is thinking or planning. I tend to be overly polite and quick to apologize. But I am a old man (61), and I can't run as fast as I used to. If I thought someone is about to bash my head in I will stop them if I can. I won't care if they think they have a good reason and there will be no negotiation or lengthy conversation about it. I am not interested in proving anything, just surviving. If I have to pull a gun to do that then I have already decided to pull the trigger. I fully understand that my life will never be the same after such an event but my plan will be to at least see my family again. I believe some things are simply worth defending and my gun will never hurt anyone who is not trying to hurt me or someone I love.
  • mythaeusmythaeus Senior Member Posts: 831 Senior Member
    It worth pointing out that in Ohio, you do not have the duty to retreat if you're in your vehicle: http://codes.ohio.gov/orc/2901.09 . This doesn't mean that if you are standing around your vehicle, you are permitted to use deadly force; however, it makes it interesting on how that can be applied in your specific situation while you're in a vehicle. I'm not a lawyer and I'm in no way advocate the use of deadly force in your case, but it raises the question about what if you were cornered, your life and the lives of your loved ones are threatened, and had no choice.

    Personally, I would always choose to retreat IF I had a way out, ALWAYS. We have a relatively watered down version of Stand Your Ground here in PA. We can stand our ground and defend ourselves without the duty to retreat IF the attacker has a weapon. We don't have castle doctrine for vehicles like OH. Key take a way here is that the extend of your action is limited by your state law on the use of deadly force. The advice a reputable lawyer gave me was "use deadly force if you're willing to go to jail or go bankrupted for it". If it worth either or both, basically pretty much narrows it down to protecting my life and the lives of my loved ones, that's when I will do it.

    Pulling my gun means that I'm ready to pull the trigger. However, whether or not I pull the trigger depends on whether or not the threat continues or stops. I personally believe in stopping the threat, not killing it.

    Fist fight? I'd avoid that at all costs.

    Al
    "In a controversy, the instant we feel anger we have already ceased striving for the truth and have begun striving for ourselves." - Siddhartha Gautama
  • BakermanBakerman Member Posts: 382 Member
    Oh ............ that could have been me. Driving in traffic so long and sometimes tired I've found my self following people for no reason. Just taking up the subconscious traffic trail position. I'm not tailgating .......... I'm drafting.

    Or maybe not.


    I have also been the guy in the pick up, with slide in camper loaded pulling the boat driving down the center lane in cruise control. I had a little sun burnt Chevette or similar car pull up beside me and start pumping his fist. Looking left and down I started drifting to the left side of my lane......The little guy by then had collected another truck on his six and me encroaching from the right. His eyes got big and he accelerated out of there only to pull in front of me and nearly get creamed by another car as he crossed over into the right lane. Still in cruise control I watched the show continuing on my way.
    Bakerman formerly known as Bakerman
  • addy777addy777 Banned Posts: 4 New Member
    deleted for spam
  • knitepoetknitepoet Senior Member Posts: 19,280 Senior Member
    addy777 wrote: »
    :spam:
    BYE Spammer :banned:
    Seven Habits of Highly Effective Pirates, Rule #37: There is no “overkill”. There is only “open fire” and “I need to reload”.


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